what to do on this flop when faced a donk lead

IDONKCALLU

rossco1874Small blind 40.0040.001735.00weejohnBig blind 80.00120.002930.00 Your hole cards77   CANNONKIDFold    bobbins360Fold    hbt123Call 80.00200.004115.00IDONKCALLURaise 320.00520.005945.00rossco1874Fold    weejohnFold    hbt123Call 240.00760.003875.00Flop  5610   hbt123Bet 760.001520.003115.00IDONKCALLUFold    hbt123Muck    hbt123Win 760.00 3875.00hbt123Return 760.000.004635.00

ADAM685

only one of two things in this position you either believe he has someting or you dont so in sayin  that you either fold or reraise

IDONKCALLU

i was never calling it was fold or raise so played safe 

percival09

calling and folding to a blank turn card is pretty bad imo

readless I probz sigh and fold - knowing I may well be folding the best hand

jugglegeek

I fold too but where's the logic saying is raise or fold. It's unlikely he is doing this donk bet for value with a worse hand so it's either a bluff or a much better hand than ours. If we believe he's bluffing isn't it therefore better to smooth call the flop; let him fire again on the turn and then ship it?

IDONKCALLU

my logic is if i call the villain will barrell again on the turn  so im bleeding chips by calling the flop and turn so i thought its either a raise or fold 

EvilPingu

I hate raising flop as it's basically raising for information, if he's bluffing he folds and if he's got a hand which beats us, he doesn't fold, and we commit ourselves to the pot as well once we raise. We either win a small pot or get stacked by raising. If villain is really, really fishy, we may get him to stack off with 6x hands or maybe even 2 overcards as people often play AK/AQ when they miss, but it definitely wouldn't happen often enough to make value shoving the flop the correct play long term.

I think folding is the safest option, although we're folding the best hand sometimes. Limp/call pre followed by donk leading full pot on the flop looks like he's playing bingo and he's hit his card, to me. After all, it's Saturday, weekend bingo fun ftw.

Calling is just awkward with the effective stack sizes.

One option would be to overcall pre-flop, I don't think we can fold 77 but if we've seen our opponent taking this line often, then it's going to put us in an awkward spot on a lot of flops when we raise, get called and we're faced with a pot donk lead on flops with any overcards or if we don't hit a 7, which is going to be most of the time. 

simonnatur

A bit of context helps with the analysis, it appears this player hasnt played any money games on Sky.

I agree he's most likely hit top pair and is not sophisticated enough to go for c/raise.

simonnatur

A donk lead by a more sophisticated player is more likely to be half pot or smaller, either as a cheap bluff or to induce a raise when he's flopped a big hand.

IDONKCALLU

i raised pre as im in position evil pingu any other seat on table id just limp i raised co most times on the flop it would go check i bet fold i win pot

rancid

fold - either donking 88/99 or 10x or even better like a set/JJ>
would be amazed if oppo donks AK/AQ

is oppo donking 78 - lolz doubt it

GREGHOGG

i am making my raise slightly smaller preflop (250-260)

as played, readless, i sigh fold. if i was deeper i would call and reassess.

grantorino

In Response to Re: what to do on this flop when faced a donk lead:

my logic is if i call the villain will barrell again on the turn  so im bleeding chips by calling the flop and turn so i thought its either a raise or fold 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

wat?

I am failing to understand your logic as to why raising />>calling. Surely if we continue we think we are ahead. so why raise, when the range we are ahead of is weak and we want him to barrell turn

I would just fold readless

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: what to do on this flop when faced a donk lead:

In Response to Re: what to do on this flop when faced a donk lead : wat? I am failing to understand your logic as to why raising /> />calling. Surely if we continue we think we are ahead. so why raise, when the range we are ahead of is weak and we want him to barrell turn I would just fold readless
Posted by grantorino

+1 to all of this.

If we raise on the flop, are we:

1) Raising for value

2) Raising as an ill-advised bluff

3) Raising for information?

Don't do number 3, EVER.

You're definitely not raising for value with 2nd pair, and you're definitely not bluffing a fish who limp/calls pre then donk leads pot because that would be a stupid thing to do. So why do you want to raise?

KAM99

Limp call preflop, donk bet on flop... Hallmarks of a weaker player that has matched the flop. has no concept of Cbets and that checking to you likely gets one, and so sees they paired the board and its "oh a pair, bet, bet before my 10x junk is facing overcards"... or words to taht effect. Fold obvious unless other reads on the villian.

Course could be a misread on the guy, but this normally the case when facing limp/call donk bet pot.

BorinLoner

I think the only reason to raise the flop is if we're CERTAIN that we have the best hand right now but we don't know what we're going to do on a turn card that isn't a 2 or a 3. Every other ccard is either straightening or an over-card. I don't think it's a particularly good thing to do... just fold.

I've seen quite a few of these full-pot leads recently. It's a sure sign of an inexperienced player. If it's a bluff it's too big and costly when it doesn't get through and if it's a big hand then it only gets looked up by another big hand so loses all value from the opponent's range. Given that - assuming you agree with this conclusion - you should be able to let go of your effective second pair and feel happy enough that you're going to outplay this guy in the long-run.

Incidentally, I wouldn't like limping behind with this deep a stack, especially if your c-bets have been getting through often. You're playing the button so I like the raise. I'd agree with GREGHOGG that you can make the raise a bit smaller, though... I'd give different advice to a beginner but as you're more experienced you don't always need to stick to the 3x + 1 per limp. This deep, you ought to be happy to play flops in position so a bit smaller will do the trick here.

AMYBR

Only read OP. 

Raise much smaller pre IP, maybe as small as 220 - 250.  With a hand this vulnerable all we really want is the betting lead IP postflop, rather than bloating pot for most boars we wont like.  C-bet is likely going to be in the 80 />% region so we can win/lose this pot alot cheaper/riskless.

With the added benefit of set mining cheaper MW.

Instinct tells me your aggro image worked against you in this hand