Stacked On Jacks

Arteta4

Hiya,

Blew my stack on this hand and just wandered was there any getting away from this one or does the hand play itself?
Can I gain more information on the flop with a raise/fold and save losing my whole stack?

My thoughts on the turn were that if I called, I was likely to face a decision for the rest of my stack on the river so I shoved.

The low cards on the flop (disaster for my hand lol)



PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancesnapper725Small blind £0.10£0.10£24.25DeadlyDaveBig blind £0.20£0.30£16.90 Your hole cardsJJ   v1Raise £0.80£1.10£33.09gmoney11Call £0.80£1.90£21.22Arteta4Call £0.80£2.70£19.37snapper725Fold    DeadlyDaveFold    Flop  234   v1Bet £2.70£5.40£30.39gmoney11Fold    Arteta4Call £2.70£8.10£16.67Turn  9   v1Bet £5.40£13.50£24.99Arteta4All-in £16.67£30.17£0.00v1Raise £22.54£52.71£2.45v1Unmatched bet £11.27£41.44£13.72v1ShowAA   Arteta4ShowJJ   River  10   v1WinPair of Aces£39.64 £53.3

The_Don90

flatting on the button here can never be good taking your hand 3 ways. 3b pre.

percival09

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

flatting on the button here can never be good taking your hand 3 ways. 3b pre.
Posted by The_Don90

why? what do you do if you get 4b? flatting keeps all worse hands in the pot which means you can extract max value plus if you hit a J you're in heaven.. if you 3b you're likely only to be 4b by a hand that beats you and you can't really 3b/f jj - also if you 3b and are called youll be in a v.tricky spot esp readless

It'd be a good fold if you could lay this down on the turn - but it is hard

I don't mind the shove tbh although it is unlikely that you'll be called by worse

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : why? what do you do if you get 4b? flatting keeps all worse hands in the pot which means you can extract max value plus if you hit a J you're in heaven.. if you 3b you're likely only to be 4b by a hand that beats you and you can't really 3b/f jj - also if you 3b and are called youll be in a v.tricky spot esp readless It'd be a good fold if you could lay this down on the turn - but it is hard I don't mind the shove tbh although it is unlikely that you'll be called by worse
Posted by percival09

If you 3-bet, you know you're only being 4-bet by a hand that beats you but you can't fold? That doesn't make alot of sense.

If you 3-bet here, I don't necessarily think you are only going to be 4-bet by AA, KK or QQ but if we have no reads on our opponent's range it would perhaps be better to be cautious. I wouldn't mind 3-bet calling but we then have to take that caution through the streets. If our opponent fires this blank flop, we can float,but then we probably have to fold if he barrels the turn. Generally when we 3-bet with JJ this deep, we want most of all to be called. We certainly don't want to be getting 100BB in pre-flop with JJ. Your 3-bet should be in line with that, so make it a fairly small one, say £2.40-£2.60.

I agree with the Don that I wouldn't want to take this hand three-way and perhaps more to the flop. Chances are that JJ is best pre-flop and we should try to get value from it now, as well as narrowing the field and gaining the betting lead. If we only call I think it's set-mining since we know it's going to be multi-way. I wouldn't mind that with 88 but JJ is surely too strong to set-mine.

I think 3-betting pre-flop was the only way you could ever get away from this hand, considering the way the board ran out. By calling you really under-repped your hand and so the opponent could easily have been playing a draw or an overpair to the board in the way he did. You could never have thought that the board had improved his hand to beat you if you were in front pre-flop. Unfortunately for you, you weren't in front pre-flop.

percival09

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : If you 3-bet, you know you're only being 4-bet by a hand that beats you but you can't fold? That doesn't make alot of sense. If you 3-bet here, I don't necessarily think you are only going to be 4-bet by AA, KK or QQ but if we have no reads on our opponent's range it would perhaps be better to be cautious. I wouldn't mind 3-bet calling but we then have to take that caution through the streets. If our opponent fires this blank flop, we can float,but then we probably have to fold if he barrels the turn. Generally when we 3-bet with JJ this deep, we want most of all to be called. We certainly don't want to be getting 100BB in pre-flop with JJ. Your 3-bet should be in line with that, so make it a fairly small one, say £2.40-£2.60. I agree with the Don that I wouldn't want to take this hand three-way and perhaps more to the flop. Chances are that JJ is best pre-flop and we should try to get value from it now, as well as narrowing the field and gaining the betting lead. If we only call I think it's set-mining since we know it's going to be multi-way. I wouldn't mind that with 88 but JJ is surely too strong to set-mine. I think 3-betting pre-flop was the only way you could ever get away from this hand, considering the way the board ran out. By calling you really under-repped your hand and so the opponent could easily have been playing a draw or an overpair to the board in the way he did. You could never have thought that the board had improved his hand to beat you if you were in front pre-flop. Unfortunately for you, you weren't in front pre-flop.
Posted by BorinLoner

what I meant was, JJ is a strong hand and I hate 3b folding a strong hand 100bb deep. Readless, you have to presume a 4b, more times than not, has jj beat, or at least you're racing at best. If you 3b/f here you're turning your hand into a bluff - almost like you're raising for info which is never good imo. I don't think 3betting would be the worst thing in the world but imo flatting is best. Even if opponents just flat call - you're in a v tough spot with an inflated pot vs 2 unknowns. You'd need to have good reads so you'll know when to bluff, when to bluff catch and when to bet for value, and judging from the op I don't think hero has that

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : what I meant was, JJ is a strong hand and I hate 3b folding a strong hand 100bb deep. Readless, you have to presume a 4b, more times than not, has jj beat, or at least you're racing at best. If you 3b/f here you're turning your hand into a bluff - almost like you're raising for info which is never good imo. I don't think 3betting would be the worst thing in the world but imo flatting is best. Even if opponents just flat call - you're in a v tough spot with an inflated pot vs 2 unknowns. You'd need to have good reads so you'll know when to bluff, when to bluff catch and when to bet for value, and judging from the op I don't think hero has that
Posted by percival09

As the replyer states we;re short on reads. Firstly i hate taking a pair like jacks 3 way, secondly we have the button which makes it slightly easier to play if we are 4bet. As a result we could also be 3betting with a seriously wide range allowing us to get 4bet by worse.

My 3bet sizing would be based on being able to flat a 4bet in posision and then play the later streets HU.

Not wanting to cause offence here but it almost seems like your scared of jacks.

Out of theortcal speaking Caller has 22 here, and raise has AK we go broke. Post flop on a 5 high flop we have no idea where we are. Opponent has an overpair and flop comes T high or lower as it does in this example we go broke because we have no clue where we are.

Im raising for value but by raising for value we can also narrow our opponents range based on their play afterwards

BorinLoner

I'll never understand this "betting for information" nonsense. I think it's become a bit of a fad to say that it's bad and you shouldn't do it, when in actual fact it's literally impossible to bet solely for information. Any bet you make is going to result in either a fold, a call or a raise. Taking information from each of those is what the game's all about but the actual results are a) He folds and you win the pot - The information we've gained is that he was weak b) He calls and you play the flop with the betting lead - the information is that he must have something, or just thinks he can own us c) He raises and you interpret that how you will. The only thing I'd say is that we should know how we're going to interpret each of his possible reactions before we make our raise.

If we don't 3-bet here and take this flop three, four or five ways there may be no flops that are going to look good for us, unless it contains a Jack. The calling range of the blinds will be impossible to define and the raiser and caller will cover most of the upper part of the deck. In these circumstances we'll go to the flop as less than a favourite and willl be extremely prone to being bluffed or being played for value. Essentially, if we call we will be set-mining because everything else will be really tough for us to play - We can be reasonably sure that if we go multi-way we'll only play a big pot if we're behind, unless our hand improves.

When we 3-bet our JJ, we're definitely raising them for value, since they're pretty likely to be best and will be so more times than not. We're also protecting them and defining our opponent's range.

So I'd be 3-betting, hoping to be called by one opponent. If they both fold then I'll be content with the pot and if I'm 4-bet, I'd probably call but proceed cautiously. This depends on us 3-betting pretty small as if we 3-bet big any 4-bet will probably be too big for us to call, so we'll be forced to shove or fold. In those circumstances I'd probably fold but I wouldn't get myself into that position...

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

I'll never understand this "betting for information" nonsense. I think it's become a bit of a fad to say that it's bad and you shouldn't do it, when in actual fact it's literally impossible to bet solely for information. Any bet you make is going to result in either a fold, a call or a raise. Taking information from each of those is what the game's all about but the actual results are a) He folds and you win the pot - The information we've gained is that he was weak b) He calls and you play the flop with the betting lead - the information is that he must have something, or just thinks he can own us c) He raises and you interpret that how you will. The only thing I'd say is that we should know how we're going to interpret each of his possible reactions before we make our raise. If we don't 3-bet here and take this flop three, four or five ways there may be no flops that are going to look good for us, unless it contains a Jack. The calling range of the blinds will be impossible to define and the raiser and caller will cover most of the upper part of the deck. In these circumstances we'll go to the flop as less than a favourite and willl be extremely prone to being bluffed or being played for value. Essentially, if we call we will be set-mining because everything else will be really tough for us to play - We can be reasonably sure that if we go multi-way we'll only play a big pot if we're behind, unless our hand improves. When we 3-bet our JJ, we're definitely raising them for value , since they're pretty likely to be best and will be more times than not. We're also protecting them and defining our opponent's range. So I'd be 3-betting, hoping to be called. If they both fold then I'll be content with the pot and if I'm 4-bet, I'd probably call but proceed cautiously. This depends on us 3-betting pretty small, as if we 3-bet big any 4-bet will probably be too big for us to call, so we'll be forced to shove or fold. In those circumstances, I'd probably fold but I wouldn't get myself into that position...
Posted by BorinLoner

Great post mate. Think i was trying to hit on the same thing seen this after my edit into more detail. But yeah This.

BorinLoner

Yeah, we were typing the same sort of thing at the same time. You beat me to it though.
gg

percival09

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : As the replyer states we;re short on reads. Firstly i hate taking a pair like jacks 3 way, secondly we have the button which makes it slightly easier to play if we are 4bet. As a result we could also be 3betting with a seriously wide range allowing us to get 4bet by worse. My 3bet sizing would be based on being able to flat a 4bet in posision and then play the later streets HU. Not wanting to cause offence here but it almost seems like your scared of jacks. Out of theortcal speaking Caller has 22 here, and raise has AK we go broke. Post flop on a 5 high flop we have no idea where we are. Opponent has an overpair and flop comes T high or lower as it does in this example we go broke because we have no clue where we are. Im raising for value but by raising for value we can also narrow our opponents range based on their play afterwards
Posted by The_Don90

lol I have nightmares about them. The amount of sleep I've lost now is remarkable

your reasoning is way off imo flatting a 4b is pretty bad 100bb deep - doesn't matter if you're in position or not, the pot's gonna be too inflated to make any fancy plays

You have an under repped hand and you take value from pairs lower than yours, and obv if villain has an overpair you can perhaps fold on a later street - the fact is you're getting value from all hands worse and will probz lose less than you would by 3 betting. 

like I said earlier, I don't mind 3b jj but a lot of the time playing it like 88-1010 is the best approach imo and you'll get the best results by doing that over a long period of time

simonnatur

I'm with Perci on this, dont mind flatting and reassessing on flop.

probably should be stacking off in an aggressive hi/mid stakes game, but flatting works for me at NL20

YOUNG_GUN

Flat pre is fine. 

its weird in play i could fold turn.. altho i have just pokerstoved it against a tight range of hands like possible FD included and sets this is odds on turn aswell so it could be unlucky here longterm readless. 

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

   4,664  games     0.040 secs   116,600  games/sec

Board: 2h 3s 4s 9h

Dead:  

equity win tie      pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 56.925%   56.93% 00.00%          2655        0.00   { JhJs }

Hand 1: 43.075%   43.07% 00.00%          2009        0.00   { QQ+, TT-99, 44-22, A5s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s }

---

grantorino

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : As the replyer states we;re short on reads. Firstly i hate taking a pair like jacks 3 way, secondly we have the button which makes it slightly easier to play if we are 4bet. As a result we could also be 3betting with a seriously wide range allowing us to get 4bet by worse. My 3bet sizing would be based on being able to flat a 4bet in posision and then play the later streets HU. Not wanting to cause offence here but it almost seems like your scared of jacks. Out of theortcal speaking Caller has 22 here, and raise has AK we go broke. Post flop on a 5 high flop we have no idea where we are. Opponent has an overpair and flop comes T high or lower as it does in this example we go broke because we have no clue where we are. Im raising for value but by raising for value we can also narrow our opponents range based on their play afterwards
Posted by The_Don90

Just because you "hate" taking jacks 3 way isn't a good enough reason to 3bet. It also isnt always bad to flat,  sometimes it's correct

3b and call a small 4bet sounds redic, the stack to pot ratio will be tiny so don't see how you are going to play multiple streets

Lol at Percival being scared of jacks cos he wants to flat them, while you "hate" going 3 way , who's really afraid?

Nothing particularly theoretical about what you are saying, but how do you intend playing this in a 3bet pot that gives us less chance of going broke on this type of board? How do you know where you are on 5 hi flop readless in 3b pot?

BigHawk89

I know alot of people wont like this but i would 3 bet pre and fold to a 4 bet or shove, specially if villians been playing really tight, it stops us gettng into horrible spots like this when we have jacks on a low flop and the villian has bigger overpair.

I dont think this is right at many other stakes but i play alot of 20nl.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks : Just because you "hate" taking jacks 3 way isn't a good enough reason to 3bet. It also isnt always bad to flat,  sometimes it's correct 3b and call a small 4bet sounds redic, the stack to pot ratio will be tiny so don't see how you are going to play multiple streets Lol at Percival being scared of jacks cos he wants to flat them, while you "hate" going 3 way , who's really afraid? Nothing particularly theoretical about what you are saying, but how do you intend playing this in a 3bet pot that gives us less chance of going broke on this type of board? How do you know where you are on 5 hi flop readless in 3b pot?
Posted by grantorino

By 3 betting im 3 betting for value but im also being able to narrow opponents range aswell. now i have time to think maybe 3bet folding is better. Athough then arent we now turning our hand into a bluff of betting for information. Jacks i think are to strong for either.

Either way im 3 betting pre.

My comment about being scared wasnt meant in anyway to cause offence but the reasoning for flatting suggests that he wasnt comfortable with jacks in posision.

Im not saying 3betting and getting flatted stops us going broke on this kind of flop some people will still call with 22/33/44 etc and theyll flop a set, but id be less scared that they have an overpair. AA/KK/QQ are unlikley to flat a 3b OOP. And we can also get 4bet light because we;re 3betting from the button. Obviously that means we have to know an opponent that knows that.

3betting to get it in seems better to me given my latest reply. Sigh hense why we need timebanks. Obviously alot of the time aswell this will look like a squeeze, particularly if we squeeze alot. And others we just take the pot pre.

3betting does seem the best option to me. by just flatting i rekon we allow blinds in too cheap/

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Stacked On Jacks:

I know alot of people wont like this but i would 3 bet pre and fold to a 4 bet or shove, specially if villians been playing really tight, it stops us gettng into horrible spots like this when we have jacks on a low flop and the villian has bigger overpair. I dont think this is right at many other stakes but i play alot of 20nl.
Posted by BigHawk89

maybe a good shout. I dont play much NL20 so im trying to comment knowing my play but i just cnt quite argue about what happens if we're 4bet.

You saying this does convince me 3b folding might be acceptable.

LOL_RAISE

+1 to what perci has said

rancid

flat is ok, ul can't get away from that flop

by turn you only beating 10's or prs<9's

maybe fold turn but very difficult, it's a never fold situation even though u may be beat

only good to 3 bet this spot if your sure oppo/s flat with worse - +reads+

andybeth

your opponent 4Xs from early position pre, pots flop, 3/4 bets turn. At 20NL, this means only one thing! you're simply not beating anything that he takes this line with except maybe AKs, but most players at this level still wouldn't play it as strong as in this hand. fold turn