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NL200 - Not a scooby where I am
Player 1 is a very good, extremely aggressive reg. Valid history is they have been saying how many times they've run Kings into Aces in the last couple of days on these Mastercash nl200 tables.
Player 2 has been having a bad session thus far, been very passive and looking to see nearly all flops. They have been reloading on a few occasions and we're confident we are well ahead of their range.
Player 3 has put money into every single pot thus far.
Neither 2 or 3 are not Regs as far as I am aware. I have been raising to Iso 2 and 3 a lot, they are normally coming in together.
The normal critique on all the play is welcomed, what do we do with this flop and what range do we assign player 1?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| TommyD | Small blind | £1.00 | £1.00 | £442.20 | |
| Player1 | Big blind | £2.00 | £3.00 | £421.82 | |
| Player3 | Big blind | £2.00 | £5.00 | £346.53 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| scotty77 | Fold | ||||
| lJAMESl | Raise | £10.00 | £15.00 | £572.58 | |
| Player3 | Call | £8.00 | £23.00 | £338.53 | |
| Player2 | Call | £10.00 | £33.00 | £65.00 | |
| TommyD | Raise | £38.00 | £71.00 | £404.20 | |
| Player1 | Call | £37.00 | £108.00 | £384.82 | |
| lJAMESl | Fold | ||||
| Player3 | Call | £29.00 | £137.00 | £309.53 | |
| Player2 | All-in | £65.00 | £202.00 | £0.00 | |
| TommyD | Raise | £88.00 | £290.00 | £316.20 | |
| Player1 | Call | £88.00 | £378.00 | £296.82 | |
| Player3 | Fold | ||||
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| TommyD | ? | ||||
Comments
by comment u make can u add kk to his range?
looks a good table for 200nl
Weird spot, i stack but im a fish.
Would be very interested to see what happened.
Alriite Tommy, i was owned by you in H/U yesterday, im glad the Sky did not show those hands lol, you have a great "pay off" style, Ace high looks pretty vs you, so you are dangerous when you have a hand!
Ref hand, Tricky spot, player 1's (is he boonicon?) cold call is either AK, QQ, KK, JJ, (200bb though could be wider?). . . KKs in there because of what you said in OP, i thnk c-betting/shoving never gets called by worse! so you just have to check imo, hope it goes to show down and that your QQ are good, also i would not worry about protecting your hand here either.
Have to check, but not loving it !
don't see how you c/f or b/f !
think ply 1 is very narrow AA/KK/AK
But I think check/call or check/fold if too big a bet. .........but what does an nl4 know?
very interested to see the result of this one (if there is one)
Well above my level but 10's, J's & AK all look feasible possibilities, really don't see any way out of this spot though, not sure I could check fold here.
I don't play cash BUT could I ask why you made it £88? Surely if you wanted to get rid of player 1 it should have been MUCH bigger? I think you're between a rock & a hard place here! Personally, I think a check feigns weakness and If you c/bet (£110/120) it's all going in I suspect?
pad
WIDRR = When in doubt re reaise.
Mostly kidding though as not a huge subscriber to the line
kind of like just flatting the jam pre to keep player3 in and possibly let player1 do something stupid
now were here prob c/cing flop depending on villains bet size
What did you do?
You have to love a hand where you're told your 5bet is both too small and too big.
I posted this at the tail end of a long Sunday session, coming back to it fresh it looks even more of a headache. I will be posting results, you might see it on Top of the Pots, but only a might depending on what else has been running this week, not too many big games this week.
To answer some questions from the responses so far:
It's a 5bet, not a 4bet. If I am correct reading the history (which is tricky here) and from memory it's a min raise + a half from the 4bet shorty jam.
Let's list the action preflop: fold, UTG+1 5Xraise, flat, flat, 3bet, cold call, original UTG+1 raiser folds, call, 4bet short shove, 5bet, flat, fold.
I kind of want to be flamed for the 5bet, or at least get it right under the microscope. Let's look at our options. If I call I'm taking QQ from the SB into a very likely 4-way pot (albeit with one player all in). The three of us are still relatively deep. I am less than thrilled by this prospect and am reduced to guessing my way through the streets. Equally I hate going bigger which leaves me completely committed to the pot, especially when I'm already suspicious of Player 1. What is he cold calling from the BB a SB 3bet to an UTG+1 5x raise with? The added wrinkle is that I have been isolating Players 2 and 3 a lot so my range is bigger than it normally is in the eyes of both Player 1 and James, and then again I'm still 3betting OOP a 5x open from a player who is both UTG+1 and much better than me.
I think I've gone cross-eyed now just trying to put this together.
The 5bet was an attempt at a secondary isolate raise (I think I'm just making terms up now). If Player 1 folds I am pretty confident that Player 3 is calling, in which case I would be very confident of being ahead and on this flop would be shoveling money into the middle confident of being called by any Jack, any pocket pair and most straight draw/pair and draw (yes, this wide versus Player 3). I am still very suspicious of Player 1's holding and I tried to gauge a bet where I am not committed to a shove but where he can't just call, he'll either be shoving or folding, opening my attention up to Player 3. I obviously got this ghastly wrong, I was really massively surprised when he just called. Maybe I shouldn't have been?
So short answer, it's a 5bet/most likely fold to Player 1, and a 5bet/get it in to player 3. Is this really bad thinking? Feel free to tell me, be as brutal as you like. Is a 5bet/fold ever a good idea, let alone with Queens? I'm not trying to turn Queens into a bluff v Player 1 but I am trying to give the impression of 'Yes I know there are loose players in the pot but I really am big. Yes I know I've been saying that quite a lot but this time it's really true, please go away.'
Some other quick answers, no it's not Boonicon but let's not play the 'guess the regs' game. They are a reg, IMO they are good and aggressive. I have a fair amount of history with them but not as much as some other Regs.
Yes it was a good NL200 game, that's why it was still running at 4am this morning. I'm on my 12th cup of coffee today.
Player 1's call of the 5bet and obviously the cold call of the 3bet do not close the action, in fact the later has three players with action behind.
My 3 bet sizing is directly relative to Player 2's stack and trying not to get snookered by an under-raise shove. He was due to pop at this point and get all the discs over the line in an act of desperation.
plus on the flop, as it's going to showdown anyway is it less likely if you check that oppo makes a play here with worse
I check, he checks behind.
Turn brings a King.
I check/fold to a £90 bet
Player 1 has AKo which has Player 2's A2o drawing dead to scoop the pot.
Looking back I think the critical point is the 5bet. I maintain it is most likely a flat takes us 4 way to the flop and playing the SB I'm pretty much hating that. But maybe my thinking that Player 1 'has to shove or fold.' is skewed. Turning Queens face up versus one player while betting for value with it against another player is, for me, likely to be the equivalent of trying to turn lead into gold. Is my thinking totally out of whack with the 5bet and reasons behind it? All opinions welcome, and I do mean all. A lot of people have said it's 'above their level.' Hogwash, it's all blinds, cards and people, regardless of the stakes and all opinions are relevant.
Looking at it from the AK's spot, that's pretty naughty as well. This deep do they cold 4bet? And as played what do you do facing the 5bet?
Clearing up a few bits, I understand the thinking behind the info bet as suggested by Ryan, but as well as agreeing it feels a bit sickly to do it I also think if I put any more money into the pot I'm pretty pot stuck and drawing to two cards the vast majority of the time. Can I bet/fold £90 on the flop? Seems really bad to me turning Queens into a bluff here, because that's basically what I'm doing.
Sometimes I kinda miss the old me. The one that would say 'I have an over pair, SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE.' He was cute.
not sure anyone suggested to bet on the flop to protect your hand haha, but neither is it a spot where you'd ever have to think you would need to :S
to me, flatting the 3-bet from player 1's point of view is fairenough, but to then call another £88 (with what he must realise is a pot bet on the flop to cover him) and 95 percent of the time hes gonne be facing a bet on every flop (this is in the 5% i guess! ;p).
Is he hoping your gonna stack off with K's/Q's on an ace high flop? (because surely they must now know that your range is purely JJ+ at a minimum and AK) seems a bit crazy to call off £126 (63BB's) (obviously hes never doing it out of a 100BB stack, so thats his only redemption thats hes sitting 210BB's deep but then where would his value come from post flop?
what are your opinions to that out of interest?
I actually didn't post on this hand before the results but my opinion was it might have been AK rather than anything else to flat twice. Mainly as no issue with flatting the 3bet with postion on you and then when the 5bet comes with the others bloating the pot he is getting 3:1 to make the call, and while he won't be loving his AK I would think at this point its reasonable pot odds to see the flop I guess and hope to hit it strong, and pray you're on the lower end of a 5bet range (IE the QQ you were on). Only downside is with AK you really want to see all 5 cards, but being this deep its not really something he wanted to shove either. Kind of toughish spot, as not going to get much extra value if ace hits and you are QQ-KK.
Not sure this happens without you both being 200bbs deep. Though have to ask why you checked the flop? Did you put him on KK or AA and trapping? Guess thats possible, but just would be surprised to see him turn up with AA or KK, maybe JJ-QQ, but not really higher with 2 flats. Just surprised you 5bet and then don't continue on the flop. Either you're beat or your not, but think at that pont I'd want to find out rather than give him a free card or a free shot to fold me out of it.
Thats my thoughts, but then thats me, and opinions are what we all have rightly or wrongly. hehe
even though b/f £70- is still feels so yucky
Tommy i know im nowhere near as expeianced or have the reads as many people in hear and i also said earlier im a fish in compariasson. But i think KAM makes a strong point does AA/KK make up enough of his range. As youve said ur ptetty pot stuck and youve basically turned your hand face up, so therefore why would AA/KK not want to get it in pre imo.
Flatting once to avoid turning their own cards face up maybe, but to flat twice i rekon is a little too much. Just my two pennies.
As youve said the old you gets this in, and thats maybe where my inexperiance lets me down. Obviously we have just one pair. But on the flop we have a strong betting lead, surley AA/KK is within your range as well. Once we check flop we can surley only have QQ/AK maybe KK once we check turn we then can only have QQ. I dont think we're 5 betting Tens and we're defo betting turn with KK/AK i think (i might be wrong). Therefore imo if we bet the flop we're incresing our range that we can hold. Obviously jacks do make up a percentage of their range but we're worrying about 3 hands when i think 5 or 6 hands are in our opponents range.
I think giving up the betting lead is a mistake.
don't think we can get away from hand :S
think there are pro & cons to either check or bet in this situation
don't think either is bad or good :S
think I just prefer a bet as yeah it does fold out worse but as there is a less likely chance oppo makes a play with worse as it's going to showdown I feel the take down of pot is better than the possibility of getting outdrawn