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DYM....could/would you have folded? More ops needed...give opinion b4 reading others pls. wow!!
I'd be tempted to shove pre but check is ok too.
I'd bet more on flop at least 300 or just pot.
You're guy might have the JT/56/T6 but I don't think I can fold top set here even in a DYM.
Comments
I'd be interested to know what you thought of this play? No tells or excessive plays early on.
My feeling's are that he's called a min raise w/13 BB's and could easily be fishing with suited cards earlyish tournament. The flop is wonderful yet woeful in my opinion. I understand hisbig Raise play as he sees me with fold equity as my stack is ok.. It's just too early for this call as my stack would be too small to recover most probably. The only players to gain for sure are the four other players.......
I just thought there's time and started humming Kenny Rodgers' song .........
"You've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em."
Mind you, it's hard to hum through gritted teeth!!!
PS missing stack is 2720
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceNickDiazSmall blind 50.0050.002480.00profman15Big blind 100.00150.001750.00 Your hole cards99 cazroCall 100.00250.001420.00chipcrunchFold porky556Fold mc67Call 100.00350.001200.00NickDiazCall 50.00400.002430.00profman15Check Flop 897 NickDiazCheck profman15Bet 200.00600.001550.00cazroFold mc67Raise 1000.001600.00200.00NickDiazFold profman15Fold mc67Muck mc67Win 800.00 1000.00mc67Return 800.000.001800.00 <td style="text-align:left;padding-bottom:7px;margin:0px;padding-left:5px;padding-right:5px;font-family:verdana;color:#666666;font-size:0.9em;vertical-a
EDIT: Just noticed the first word in the thread title that said "DYM", that changes things a bit... I think a fold is more understandable, but I can't fold it, ever.
as played this is never a fold m8
I appreciate your advice and have always respected your opinions. You know the game i feel. Silentbob, hi, this is the first tim we've met but tafor adding. However, i'm surprised, nay shocked at your agreement. Let me review and wait for your counter arguments. This is only meant as friendly banter and not an 'attack' in any way.
So we are in a DYM, a very shallow tournament with quick levels. If your stack gets very low then its difficult to recover especially versus five opponents. Blinds are 50/100 so very early mid stages and i have over 17 BB's.
To my mind "shove pre" is barmy army. Who is going to call except higher pairs and the occasional AK so i'm an underdog from being well placed in the pack?
Possibly a raise from the bb may get rid of some 'fisherman' but there are three of them. The ones who stay will be high carded or pairs and if the flop includes one then how do i know where i stand as first to attack. A bet here will probably be reraised by TPGK, say and i'll be further confused as to whether i'm ahead.
I have a middle pocket pair so felt that the 'set mining' strategy was correct. I hit...fantastic BUT THAT FLOP!!!! Drawing and flushing especially with limpers.
I have donk bet to,as Carlo would say, "see where i am", but when i get a big bet back, i feel its a made flush or straight or two highers with a club in the hand. This hand will pot commit if it continues. I need to pair the board to win and feel that i'm flipping for tournament survival. This only definitely benefits the 4 non-participants whose cEV will increase whoever is eliminated.
I just felt that, this was a situation where i the gamble wasn't necessary at THIS stage of a DYM.
Now, please re-comment folks as well as others. Its all part of the learning and good fun too. I know my poker's improved as i certainly wouldn't have been considering what i am now 11 months ago.
Would the ICM be on my side? I think so...
Also do you think my equity in the hand was after the flop showed . What range of hands would you have given the limpers. The 1000 bet must surely be made or two vers with one club. Yes? Can this be done on pokerstove with accuracy...or are the assumptions critical.
Cheers fellas and look forward to your counter arguments as well as other opinions.....
PS Sorry for the length of this...just interesting, i felt...
Do you have notes that 1 of more of these players limp with strong hands at this stage? If so, do they only limp premium hands? Or limp their entire range? What is their limp/call off range?
If you jam and get called, it's annoying but you will get folds a vvv high % of the time, and have good equity when you are called.
interesting hand,isn,t it.
lots of opinions too,which is great,and as it should be.
imo which doesn,t mean very much,but i,ll give u it anyways.
it,s simply one of those hands that come up quite rairly.
u have hit your top set...great.
but there is danger all around you.
3 other players 4 a start,which you could have done something about pre-flop,ie raising or moving all-in
which many seem to like.
as it is still quite early doors & not knowing the cards about to come,i think check is fine and what i would have done myself.
hitting your trip 9,s as u have doesn,t exactly fill you with confidence that u r winning does it.
yes u could have bet bigger on flop but i,m guessing oppo is not going away so if u r already thinking of folding to any re raise or shove,which i,m thinking u r,then 1/2 pot bet is good.
once oppo is effectively all-in, your fold is fine imo.
(writing has gone funny,sorry can,t seem 2 get it back)
u r still in the dym,with 1550 chips to play so no worries.
would u rather have called his bet and won those extra chips 50% of the time say,
or called and lost 50% of the time?with your game effectively over.
as played,didn,t do anything wrong imo.
did u manage to finnish in top 3 as a matter of interest,in this game?
:-)
dev
Purely on still 6 left, stack sizes & stage of DYM I CAN get away from this. I DONT like it but it's way too early to shove.
Edit: just read thread & "shove pre" REALLY?? With 99?
Nice of u to put up an opinion. may i respond in a friendly way mate to a couple of points.
"Why would people limp with..."
....because people do in early levels in DYM's. You've read the ABC John Connor article, i presume, which is really good but does talk about trying to see cheap ly with SC's. Yes this is level 3 but i've not realised on occasion too. And yes for the ABC'ers who don't like throwing TT or JJ or SC's away(very likely eg JTs+) they may feel a limp is the 'middle road' in a 'set-mining/ lets hope for a flop of low cards kindof way.
The hand ending is interesting as what would a reraise of 1000 suggest to you? Is this a +ve equity play to call or fold? What do you think?
It's really peculiar as there are real variations in the opinions of members here from a) shove pre to b)'bite their hand off' to c)fold. Its the uncertainty thats intriging as i'm yet to see a resut that says this is exploitable or not yet.
Its good to see that all poker players don't agree on the same actions. It would be a boring, non-exploitatve game if it was wasn't it.
Thanks for the post Dohhh. i know you are a good, knowledgeable player as are the vast majority i've come across on the forum. At the moment after looking at all the opinion, i've seen little to persuad my against a "CRYING" fold, if that exists!! cheers...
And whilst I'm quite sure of the above, I'm absolutely 100% positive he wouldn't advocate limp/CALLING with marginal hands @ any stage! Nevermind @ 50/100 where it's going to cost their whole stack......
I just commented on pre flop as I'm sure you're missing a trick here........
Think the important lesson you can take from this thread (if you chose to) is to think about the likely hands your opponents hold, and what you should do to play optimally against those hands (very often regardless of your own cards).
In this case, it's shove pre!
Thanks for the quick reply. appreciated....
Actually John does advocate playing suited connectors 'cheaply' and marginals but John's article refutes the idea of a pre flop shove with mid pp's...sorry. And it is on the cusp of early/middle tournament, isn't it?
its a pity there isn't a way of putting a quiz type link up with alternatives for players to vote on then get a concensus. Anyway, its just one hand in millions. I make my mistakes on the basics ...that's what i need to concentrate on...cheers for now
PS Maybe i just need a bigger pair of cohonas!!!!
As soon as you bet that flop and he shoves hes either got it or its a bluff do you really wanna risk it. Check it down with 6 still in it might seem like you are really strong but theres a st8 and flush pos that hes hit without it even being a draw, even if its a semi bluff with him holding say a king of clubs we could still be beat if no club on the turn and he checks we can put a bet in if he still shoves you can still get away cheap.
Wait for a better spot and in regard to shoving pre thats ok too depending on the players as you could take down 400 chips which would put you around the 2300 mark which you want to be at but you dont have too take risks like that in dyms all the time. Def fold imo on the flop and ive played mc67 and hes usualy got the goods. id say hes hit a st8 with J10 off and either the J or 10 being a club for the st8 flush draw.
As promised, here are my thoughts on the above hand.
Preflop: I think it's a shove. You mentioned that I wouldn't advocate this in my blog, which I don't think is the case really, I think you may have misinterpreted slightly. The blog appears to have been taken down at the moment so I can't get on just now to quote things etc. Certainly I wouldn't advocate open shipping 17BBs with 99 at this stage. However there are a couple of factors present here which change things completely. Firstly, there are 400 chips in the pot, representing 23% of our stack. Secondly, as DOHHHHHHH points out, you are very unlikely to get called here, in my opinion. If the original limper is an observed "high blind limper" (is prone to limp/folding or has shown down weak holdings having limped pre) then that would be a positive but readless I would still say that shoving pre is a clear winning play. The only way I don't shove pre is if I have a specific read that the original limper won't fold high cards to a shove and/or limps monsters.
As an aside to the pre-flop discussion, you also mentioned that I advocate limping in to see cheap flops early with SCs etc. Again I am unable to quote but think there may be a misunderstanding here too. The instances where I want to see a cheap flop are pretty rare and mostly involve getting great odds (often from the sb), with pocket pairs or the better SCs in levels 1-3 mostly. In level 4 I would never advocate opening limping with SCs 'to see a flop'.
So yeah, I think it's a pretty clear shove but checking isn't the worst thing in the world either.
Flop: This is where things get really ugly. Just as a preliminary point here you mentioned getting conflicting advice about the best way to play the hand, ranging from shove pre to snap call flop to fold flop. Just to be clear, pre-flop and post-flop cannot be taken together. What I mean is this. I undoubtedly think that the best way to play this hand is to shove pre-flop, for the reasons given above. So I am very rarely, if ever, in this spot on the flop. That being said I will still offer you my advice on what I think is the best way to play the flop having got here.
So there are 4 players in the pot and all have shallow stacks in relation to the pot. This means we don't have too many options.
Betting/calling off is certainly an option, the only downside being that it means getting the chips in against made flushes and flush draws pretty often. Against made flushes you are roughly 2:1 against but made flushes are rare so this isn't the worst thing ever. Against flush draws, this will happen very often (any random club!) but you are roughly 2:1 favourite here. Not the worst thing ever either but certainly not the best in my opinion. For these reasons I rate betting/calling off on the flop as your second best option here.
Another option on the flop is to bet (small)/fold as you have done. I rate this as your third best option. I think you are mostly going to be burning chips doing this as the chances of getting action from one of the other 3 opponents are extremely high. Of course, as you say, it has the huge advantage of finding out where you are so you can feel pretty good about your upcoming fold. However I think there is a better option here than both of the above.
I would check this flop for 2 main reasons. Firstly the stacks are shallow and you don't have much play. Secondly, you have multiple opponents. This is one of the (quite rare) spots where you can check and still have pretty much the same chance of finding out where you are as if you had bet. Dan Harrington stated the following principle in his cash game series: the likelihood that a players actions represent his actual hand is directly correlated to the number of players in the pot. In other words, the more players in the pot, the more 'honest' people are with their betting. There is also the general principle that players are also more 'honest' when the pot is large (as here compared to the shallow stacks). So combining these factors, as I say, I think you can check, being reasonably confident you will know where you are when the action gets back around to you.
What comes after checking depends on my opponents' play on the flop and the message I get back. If I am faced with any all-in (extremely likely in my opinion) I make the begrudging fold that you have made (although having saved 200 chips). If the action shows weakness, eg a bet of 200 followed by one or two calls, I jam. If the action is 3 checks behind, then play obviously depends on the turn card. If it's a club or 4th straightening card, shut down. If it's not, proceed on the assumption that you are holding the nuts.
Finally just a tiny side point that was mentioned in the thread and I think conflicting views were given. The fact that there are 6 players left in this game would be a factor, for me, towards calling all-in on the flop with top set, rather than folding. (As I said above when all factors were weighed I still came out with a begrudging fold to an all-in on the flop). Having 6 lift, though, gives weight towards calling rather than folding as with 6 left you are going to be getting less opportunities as the blinds rise. You'll have people opening the action before you more, your position when you are first in will be worse etc etc.
That's my 2p worth anyway, really interesting hand there Profman.
JC
Good of you to put such a detailed analysis down. Really well explained too....
If i could make a point to cover myself slightly...
"In level 4 I would never advocate opening limping with SCs 'to see a flop'...
Yes unfortunately, i thought that this was level three and very early at that so considered it as almost level 2. Then i commented that an" ABC'er" could have not seen it move to middle staes and be playing SC's. My mistake becausei didn't recognise the correct level.
Well, overall, the pre flop shove is one hell of a surprise. i honestly thought that it wWAS barmy so early(mind not as early as i thought, eh?) This has been one cracking hand as a learning tool and all the members have provided great insight. Merci beaucoup.....
PS Now could you explain the play of the chap lat night in a DYM 50/100 who limped UTG w/ over 13 bb's got a call from CO, i think, and i reraised 3x with AA. He called with....75s and beat me!!!! As someone put in the chat box "YUK"........just joking about the explanation but it did happen! (not a bad beat story just something which made me laugh.)
I'd just shove it in pre-flop. I'm sure that's what many others have said, too. 17BB in your stack and 4BB in the middle. Nobody has shown any strength so your shove would be likely to get through a huge majority of the time and you'd add a significant amount to your stack when it does.
But you see a flop 4-handed and hit top set on a monochrome 789 flop... Easy now, isn't it?
Shove pre-flop every time.
PS I thought the shove was barmy originally but i'm being persuaded...
I haven't read JohnConnor's DYM guide, though it seems to be very highly regarded. I would imagine that if he does advocate set-mining in the early stages, he means levels when you have perhaps 50-100BB effective stacks, meaning when the blinds are 10/20 or 20/40 if starting stacks are 2000. With blinds at 50/100, the short stacks have between 12BB and 15BB. This shouldn't really be considered to be the "early stages" of a tournament, DYM or SNG.
I think you make some very good point. Some of my assumptions did not follow John's ABC(partly because i saw the level as first level of middle stage when it is atually second level) but its certainly got people thinking hasn't it and i've enjoyed the banter as well as the 'pinging' back and forth. I can see my game is improving as i'm now starting to follow the logic in the solutions/opinions given. Can't be bad then, eh?
JUST WAIT UNTIL I GET POCKET NINES IN MY NEXT DYM!!! .......
or just open shove flop