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Correct thinking/play against aggresive villian?
This hand happened about 200 hands (so about 2 hourss) into a session, so had a pretty fair read by now on villian who was running 28/22/12 with an AF of 6. I'd noted he was playing postion smartly and doing most of his 3betting from postion and often the button. So decided to stand my ground with the 88. Thought about 4betting, but thought if he did have a big ace this would just get me into more trouble. So decided to flat and put him to the test if the flop didn't fit with any AJ+ KJ+ type of hand.
Thoughts on the hand? Outcome went my way and I was more playing the player than my cards, so thoughts based on that or the hand welcomed. Main reason I didn't like it a bit after is I semi forgot I'd flatted an MP raise already rather than having opened myself, which did make the play a bit dubious I thought as my range was pretty polarised to 77's or 10's i thought based on the line I took, which was a bit risky. Though was playing a little more loose than normal as was only playing 10nl while i adjusted table ninja's settings.
$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players -
UTG: $4.10
MP: $10.00
Hero (CO): $16.74
BTN: $12.92
SB: $9.75
BB: $8.69
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with 8s 8h
1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, BTN raises to $1.30, 3 folds, Hero calls $1
Flop: ($3.05) 2s Td 7s (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.45, Hero raises to $2.90, BTN folds
Final Pot: $5.95
Hero wins $5.68
(Rake: $0.27)
Comments
3bet pot pre, where we try and isolate the pfraiser on flop with an over + player to act behind.
Given reads I dont hate flat pre, but how often are we walking away from this pot a winner?
As played I likely c/c flop. Seems like we raise for info that ends up chasinbg out value.
That said we are blatantly playing a guessing game from turn.
Main reason I didn't like the play when running it back afterwards was fact I was multitabling and kind of forgot the action when I came back to it. Hence forgetting rather poorly that MP had opened the action, meaning my flat to his raise and then flatting the 3bet from the button didn't make my flop line that believeable for me. 77 is pretty much only hand I'd think I could be on if I was him, as I'd been just as aggresive with my hands from CO and BTN, so 1010 I'd likely have 3bet pre from the CO. Hence this was main reason I didn't like it so much. If I'd opened the action and called a 3bet then my range would be less polarised i think. So that was my thinking as to why i didn't like the C/R on the flop, but interesting hearing other thoughts.
HU here we are basically turning our hand into a bluff by raising, rather than protecting it i.e card lower than an 8
Yes we are playing a guessing game for half the deck if we go passive. But thats not to say he wont re steal with plenty of equity hands when we opt to raise flop. We open ourselves up for some weird action and force out the range of hands we have beat @ 70% (overs) and underpairs (12%). Am just happier fading a street IP and re assesing at turn tbh, whether or not that is sometimes to fold. If our reads are solid let him barrell, or c/c some troubling turns.
If he has a good read on us we may end up having to fold the best hand if he gets creative on flop or floats and fires turn, rather than taking pot at minimum.
VS a tighter player I likely go different line. But vs a known maniac am going to half let him barrell half PC IP vs spewdog
As for his play style he was neither nitty nor playing as a maniac. I posted his stats over 200 hands in first post. He was 28% VPIP with 22% PFR and 12% 3bet with AF of 6. Meaning he was playing aggresive poker from postion, not often common at 10nl even though stars level is above that of 10nl here generally speaking.
As for my C/R on the flop I was quite happy to chase out worse and take the hand there as happened. I'm quite happy adding 10% to my stack with a medium strength hand while OOP. If he calls or raises then I'm done with the hand short of hitting an 8 on the turn. If i C/C the flop then I'm pretty much saying I need to C/C the turn if a blank card below an 8 hits even though I could be a mile behind to an overpair or even just A10. So decided on the C/R as it would cost me less then facing a potential C/C on the turn and may just win me the hand there if he does have an Ax, Kx or smaller PP.
I did really call the flop with intention of doing this, but in hindsight my line just wasn't that believeable due to the MP player opening the pot and me just flatting him, and think maybe in his spot I might just have 4bet given that unless I had 77 my line just didn't make sense overly. Thats assuming he had been paying attention to my play up to that point.
From what you say I'd be tempted to c/c hu (finally there :P) to bankruptcy though
When we release it'll give him confidence to keep doing it. When we station him we can put abit of steam into his game :P
I just dont want to c/r flop and valuetown ourselves.
My thinking was that if I C/C call this flop and a blank below 8 comes I'm pretty much having to consider C/C the turn, and maybe for more than my C/R amount, and with no information if he is just barreling with air or has 10x or overpair etc. So I'm great with advice for the flop, but comments for just the flop don't help with no plan for what to do after if we just call.
If he has a good read on us we may end up having to fold the best hand if he gets creative on flop or floats and fires turn, rather than taking pot at minimum.
IP or OOP i'd likely say same given reads
lol wot do you do when you c/r flop, get called and over card comes? same scenario only you put more into the pot now innit. think about it. wot we do on turn, depends innit, we c/c sometimes c/f sometimes, depends on the villian/history, ie if we know he loves the btn but is onyl capable of bettin 1 street with air we call & see what he does on turn, if we know he is capable of reppin an ace on turn we call for the times he dont have it, if we know he doesnt bluff more than 1 street & bets the turn we fold etc etc
And as to what I do if I C/R and get called. Already said I'm likely giving up on the hand at that point believing he has a hand this time. And if he is floating to bluff the turn then all power to him for picking me off. Just the way I saw it I was likely going to face a bigger turn bet than my reraise on many occasions if I C/C the flop.. That was my thinking anyway. Game of opinions after all, and I wanted opinions on it. And respect the ones I'm getting.
A fold is ok without much 4 bet fold equity or post flop information on the opponent.As without hitting an 8, the playablility of the hand can be very tricky post flop. I would personally just fold without good, fairly in depth pre flop and post flop information. As you can be in very tricky spots, post flop. No shame in folding your only losing 3 big blinds. Although it is important not to get pushed around and to take stands. However don't get carried away with it.It's not about trying to prove who the best player is ,it is about trying to make money.
I think you can call if you have good reads on the opponent post flop. Will they fold to flop check raises a lot, will they bet three street with bluffs a lot.
With regard to the play on the flop. I personally don't like the check raise unless you have a read that will fold quite often, even if your not repping an awful lot when you check raise. Although on that particular board i think you can rep a lot more then other boards.The merit from that play comes from fold equity and protecting your hand. As long as you are not doing it for information, as the information poker players give you is not always true. You are essentially turning you hand into a bluff, although you are protecting it at the same time.
In the vast majority of cases I would prefer to use the money spent raising the bet on the flop to call another bet from the player on the turn. They may bet the turn with total air or a flush draw. Giving you more value for your hand. They may shove over your flop raise with a flush draw or some hand with outs that they think may be good a lot of the time, and you lose value. Against some players you can profitable call down to the river on many boards. It all comes down to information on you opponent.
I generally like fairly small check raises on the flop with bluffs and value hands. As you can bluff quite cheaply, and if they call, maybe barrel any overcard on the turn. However I think a min raise here looks a bit suspicious. As if you had a set they would prob expect you to raise bigger to protect against flush draws.
By the sound of your post you definitely know what your doing.
GL.