NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise

The_Don90

OK just looking through some hand historys and found this hand, river kind of bugging me.

I mind at the time i thought he could have KQ/QJ played this way but the more i think about it the less likley thats possible. Although im not 100% limped pot so Q3 is possible (with the case 3).

So im really not sure with my river desision here. Without results am i winning the min or should i be going busto.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cdw45112	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.98
x	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£5.37
	Your hole cards	3 3
The_Don90	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.96
FfLlTt89	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£2.14
cdw45112	Call		£0.02	£0.16	£2.96
x	Check
Flop
		K Q J
cdw45112	Check
x	Check
The_Don90	Check
FfLlTt89	Check
Turn
		3
cdw45112	Check
x	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.16	£0.32	£3.80
FfLlTt89	Fold
cdw45112	Fold
x	Call		£0.16	£0.48	£5.21
River
		Q
x	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.48	£0.96	£3.32
x	Raise		£0.96	£1.92	£4.25
The_Don90	Call

Wilhelm

I'm shoving and doing handstands round the living room.  We can't be leaving money behind at this level.

EvilPingu

For the villain to have a house, he's flopped a set or two pair and slow played it, or he's got Q3 (unlikely). I think you have to call because you're beating AQ, AT, QT and worse trips, but I probably wouldn't be raising here.

SHANXTA

ship it

TINTIN

id ship it tbh. if hes a bigger house then so be it.

theres only a few players who id flat there raise on the river because i know they dont put any more than a couple of blinds in a pot without a huge hand.

id expect some action in the hand before the river with 2 pair or a set to protect(even if it was min bets) from unknowns so id be pretty confident i had the best of it.

 

Fabraclass

In Response to NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

OK just looking through some hand historys and found this hand, river kind of bugging me. I mind at the time i thought he could have KQ/QJ played this way but the more i think about it the less likley thats possible. Although im not 100% limped pot so Q3 is possible (with the case 3). So im really not sure with my river desision here. Without results am i winning the min or should i be going busto. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance cdw45112 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £2.98 x Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £5.37   Your hole cards 3 3       The_Don90 Call   £0.04 £0.10 £3.96 FfLlTt89 Call   £0.04 £0.14 £2.14 cdw45112 Call   £0.02 £0.16 £2.96 x Check         Flop     K Q J       cdw45112 Check         x Check         The_Don90 Check         FfLlTt89 Check         Turn     3       cdw45112 Check         x Check         The_Don90 Bet   £0.16 £0.32 £3.80 FfLlTt89 Fold         cdw45112 Fold         x Call   £0.16 £0.48 £5.21 River     Q       x Check         The_Don90 Bet   £0.48 £0.96 £3.32 x Raise   £0.96 £1.92 £4.25 The_Don90 Call
Posted by The_Don90

I'm a nit, saying get all the money in here, against all players except big nits. Most full houses that beat you are very unlikely. kk qq and jj because of the action pre flop. Any full house with a 3 in it, as you have two 3s and one on the board. A lot of players will stack of here with a straight, and it is more likely they have a straight then many full houses in my opinion. Some player with decent queens, and maybe even some with any queen, will stack off here.

Even though it is a 4 way limped pot.I am pretty happy to get all my chips in, although not delighted. I think we are losing way to much value if we flat call When we raise we have to get all the money in. Because of the amount we have put in the post. I personally like a shove on the end. Make it look like you may be bluffing.

KAM99

Blah on that board ship it every time. Way more often you will see a straight, two pair or trip queens shown to you than you will see the bigger house at this level.

grantorino

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

I'm shoving and doing handstands round the living room.  We can't be leaving money behind at this level.
Posted by Wilhelm

This

Dudeskin8

I would bet the turn a LOT bigger, at least 30p to build pot quickly.

River with £3.32 behind and £1.92 in there have to shove and be happy in doing so. 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

I would bet the turn a LOT bigger, at least 30p to build pot quickly. River with £3.32 behind and £1.92 in there have to shove and be happy in doing so. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

gulp ive became a bigger nit than dudeskin.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise : gulp ive became a bigger nit than dudeskin.
Posted by The_Don90

For me I can't see why you'd ever be scared in this situation, it just stinks of some random Q going for the cheeky click raise. If he does have a better hand go post in Area 51 that Sky produce too many 'Action' hands lol

Also just looked back at river, got to be overbetting here as well, at this level forget all the silly 'rules' about not betting more than pot, missing bags of value here when he just flats with an average hand. 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise : For me I can't see why you'd ever be scared in this situation, it just stinks of some random Q going for the cheeky click raise. If he does have a better hand go post in Area 51 that Sky produce too many 'Action' hands lol Also just looked back at river, got to be overbetting here as well, at this level forget all the silly 'rules' about not betting more than pot, missing bags of value here when he just flats with an average hand. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

I dont think im scared. Just really tried to kill my LAG nature and the result is this lol.

Dudeskin8

Nah this has nout to do with not being LAG, it's just a standard value spot and tbh I'd presume that'd be the case at most levels especially at NL4 where hand values sky rocket, hell TPTK is the nuts most times at this level but now we're worrying when holding a house lol

Oh and what did he have, Q3 would be funny )

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

Nah this has nout to do with not being LAG, it's just a standard value spot and tbh I'd presume that'd be the case at most levels especially at NL4 where hand values sky rocket, hell TPTK is the nuts most times at this level but now we're worrying when holding a house lol Oh and what did he have, Q3 would be funny )
Posted by Dudeskin8

you couldnt be more close and missing out fwiw.

I think the biggest issue i have at NL4 is the fact ive been here as long, ive seen myself stacking off to see a hand your scratching your head as to why its theretoo many times and i think that obviously has an effect. As i said its a limped pot and hes the BB so guess i just didnt think of narrowing the range as a result. Im defo a much stronger player now than i was 3 months ago just by thinking properly where as here i just clearly wasnt thinking correctly. I wasnt happy with this hand hense the post and yer i think i got it wrong.

liamboi11

I`d personally ship it at this level there so much we are beating qx hands,910,a10 for str8s etc if he has kq,qj,q3 so be it imo.

Fabraclass

In Response to NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

OK just looking through some hand historys and found this hand, river kind of bugging me. I mind at the time i thought he could have KQ/QJ played this way but the more i think about it the less likley thats possible. Although im not 100% limped pot so Q3 is possible (with the case 3). So im really not sure with my river desision here. Without results am i winning the min or should i be going busto. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance cdw45112 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £2.98 x Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £5.37   Your hole cards 3 3       The_Don90 Call   £0.04 £0.10 £3.96 FfLlTt89 Call   £0.04 £0.14 £2.14 cdw45112 Call   £0.02 £0.16 £2.96 x Check         Flop     K Q J       cdw45112 Check         x Check         The_Don90 Check         FfLlTt89 Check         Turn     3       cdw45112 Check         x Check         The_Don90 Bet   £0.16 £0.32 £3.80 FfLlTt89 Fold         cdw45112 Fold         x Call   £0.16 £0.48 £5.21 River     Q       x Check         The_Don90 Bet   £0.48 £0.96 £3.32 x Raise   £0.96 £1.92 £4.25 The_Don90 Call
Posted by The_Don90

Against a big nitt or good reg, who can fold a big hand I would flat here, but against most players particularly at lower levels I would ship.

It's interesting that regs can get hands in fairly light with say jj if their is a certain 3 and 4 betting history between players.Or in 3 bet pots with just top pair top kicker, if their is a lot of re raise bluffing and raising nut flush draws. However in single raised pots or limped pots good regs tend to be more circumspect about getting hands all in. However it does make sense given the stack to pot ratio.

This is why against a good reg I would probably just flat on the end.

IDONKCALLU

2 words for ya ALL IN 

lynx3ffect

why are you limping? dont limp to start with then it becomes much easier putting villans on a hand or range of hands. As played i guess just stick it in

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

why are you limping? dont limp to start with then it becomes much easier putting villans on a hand or range of hands. As played i guess just stick it in
Posted by lynx3ffect

dude i wouldnt limp at any other level. But at NL4 raising just isnt gna be +EV this has been discussed many times. Im basically wanting to see a flop as cheap as poss.

I am open to discussion on this matter but really dnt see the need to open this jar again.

KAM99

Must be about time you posted results, as thnk got a good spread of anwers now.

lynx3ffect

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise : dude i wouldnt limp at any other level. But at NL4 raising just isnt gna be +EV this has been discussed many times. Im basically wanting to see a flop as cheap as poss. I am open to discussion on this matter but really dnt see the need to open this jar again.
Posted by The_Don90

sigh

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise : sigh
Posted by lynx3ffect

as i said im open to discussion on this matter.

lynx3ffect

saying raising pre-flop is not +EV is just wrong imo....how are you planning on building a pot, assigning a range to opponents or creating an image? aside from that its just ABC poker which will work at all the lower levels 

we dont just aim to win by hitting a set everytime we raise with 3s either so that shouldnt be your sole aim entering a pot....

dont know what "discussions" have happened for you to think raising at 4nl is not +ev but i'd suggest if this is what your 4nl play is based on it should be re-visited...

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

saying raising pre-flop is not +EV is just wrong imo....how are you planning on building a pot, assigning a range to opponents or creating an image? aside from that its just ABC poker which will work at all the lower levels  we dont just aim to win by hitting a set everytime we raise with 3s either so that shouldnt be your sole aim entering a pot.... dont know what "discussions" have happened for you to think raising at 4nl is not +ev but i'd suggest if this is what your 4nl play is based on it should be re-visited...
Posted by lynx3ffect

my wording was probably seriously bad. The issue with me raising 33 i think is that if i dont hit a set im often going to be multiway in what feels like an over-inflated pot. event if the flop comes 26Qr im not 100% sure im happy.

I do raise at lower levels and often balance this dependant on the table, so please dont take my limping with 33 or comment that i believe raising at NL4 is incorrect. On the BTN or CO i probably raise, in this instance im UTG.

Maybe im playing small pocket pairs wrong hense why im more than happy to discuss this.

rancid

raise these pairs 3x from early postion, no one will notice if you then change to late postion 4x/5x
no need to balance, but you don't want everyone seeing a flop with you if you open limp

don't think at NL4 over limping is bad, but open limping is bad

as for the hand, limped pot - we have house - i shove - get em in very quickly

ameliorate

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 underhouse facing check min-raise : my wording was probably seriously bad. The issue with me raising 33 i think is that if i dont hit a set im often going to be multiway in what feels like an over-inflated pot. event if the flop comes 26Qr im not 100% sure im happy. I do raise at lower levels and often balance this dependant on the table, so please dont take my limping with 33 or comment that i believe raising at NL4 is incorrect. On the BTN or CO i probably raise, in this instance im UTG. Maybe im playing small pocket pairs wrong hense why im more than happy to discuss this.
Posted by The_Don90

Hi,

If I'm reading the HH right you are 4 handed at this table?

I would consider myself on the CO in this hand and for me this is a pretty standard raise UNLESS you are likely to pick up 2 callers+ , if this table is full of calling stations then definitely look to hit a cheap set as they will pay you off well.

As for the hand I would shove.  This is an unraised pot so we should be discounting most of the strong Qx combos as well as KK/QQ/JJ , if the villain has these we sigh make a note and carry on.