Going all in

Thewiseone

youve got the nuts.

youve have a steady table image, erring on the conservative side.

youve got to the river with a sizeable pot in the middle. 

your 2 handed

My question is...

WHAT is/are the argument/s for value betting the river instead of shoving and gaining maximum value?

I (mostly) tend to value bet instead of shove because im not sure just how strong my opponent is OR am worried i will not get a call + lose money (because of the table image he/she may just put me on the nuts)

KAM99

This is more of a complex answer, and often is down to the hand itself. If you have the nuts when did you get there? Stack sizes matter in relation to the pot size. But the most important thing is NOT about you OR your hand. Its what information do you have on villian and how HE plays, and secondly what hand are you putting him on? You should always be thinking just as much about what he is on, as this can give you aid in what sort of bet you think he is calling. IE you got fullhouse and he has the flush there is a good chance he calls a shove if the pot was big enough before hand. Also, is he a tight player, or loose with his calls and happy to spew off chips with just a pair etc.

So its never as simple as value bet or shove. Ideally you want to always get it all in with the nuts and should ideally be bet sizing so that you can get it all in on turn or river, but obviously that can depend on the hand and how the action went etc. So its hand by hand basis on this and a lot to do with who you are playing and what you think he has.

weedgi

if you go in depth and figure out the ev for  all in vs value bet line on the river in poker
you would be suprised to find out how much the all in is the best play   , espec for smaller stakes

1267

Basically maths is your friend.

If you have a 30 quid pot with 30 quid behind.   You can either value bet small or shove all in.

 Lets say you bet £10 on the river 10 times.   You get called 9 out of 10 times, so you make £90
If you shove for the £30, you only need to be called 3 times out of 10 to make that £ 90 !!!    and everytime they call over that you are just printing moneyy.  So lets say you get called 7 out of 10 times for the shove, you make £210.     £120 more than when betting £10.

The idea is that if they think their hand is good, and are willing to call £10,  they should be calling for £30

unknown_username

Very good question......and far too good a one for my opinion but , i was wondering, would the answer be different for cash and MTT play? Methinks yes but i don't play cash yet as it seems like a different mindset, TBH

percival09

completely dependant on your opponent

Fabraclass

In Response to Going all in:

youve got the nuts. youve have a steady table image, erring on the conservative side. youve got to the river with a sizeable pot in the middle.  your 2 handed My question is... WHAT is/are the argument/s for value betting the river instead of shoving and gaining maximum value? I (mostly) tend to value bet instead of shove because im not sure just how strong my opponent is OR am worried i will not get a call + lose money (because of the table image he/she may just put me on the nuts)
Posted by Thewiseone

I am not a big fan of betting more then the pot on the river. Especially if you are unlikely to be bluffing.You want to have the same bet sizing with bluffs and value bets. When you overbet the pot on the river you have to do this with bluffs and value bets to stay balanced.  When bluffing you will be betting way more then you need to, to get the player to fold the type of hands you want them to fold on the river. And your bluff will have to work far more often, too be profitable.

If you don't have a good balance between bluffs and value bets on every street you will be very easy to play against. You can achieve a good balance do this by betting flop, turn, and river with flush draws and straight draws almost every time. If an overcard to the flop comes on the turn, bet the turn and river almost everytime whether you hit or not.

Players on average fold flop to c bet bout 50%, the turn after calling flop about 40%, and the river after calling flop and turn about 50%. Figures obtained from HM1 by the way. However i would imagine these figure will vary if their is a significant change in the board from fop to turn in particular.But don't go to the other extreme of bluffing too much either, as this can be quite easy to play against aswell.

I like a two thirds pot bet on flop and turn,and bout 80-85% of pot on river to rep a bluff that is trying to force them off their hand. after betting a smaller percentage on flop and turn and being called. I particularly like this river bet sizing on boards where their are missed flush draws. As I said though, you have got to keep your bet sizing consistent.

GL.