Confidence in cash

jams88 · May 2012

Trying to learn to play cash which i think i do pretty well in my actual play but...
The last 3 days have been big losing days for me. I fire up 4 tables when i log in and for the 1st half hour make a slow steady profit maybe 60-80 bigs then i seem to take an inevitable badbeat or cooler which wipes out all my profit and then often folllowed by another 1 or 2 leaving me 1-2 BIs down. I fell like just getting up and leaving a table because i have won a couple of small pots is too weak and i will never show a profit. do i just have to stick with it and hope it evens out? Does anybody else have this trouble

heres a few of the most recent unavoidable imo but could be wrong.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SlickJim	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.46
rancid	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.23
	Your hole cards	7 7
biggs	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£12.03
GREGSTER	Fold
frankban09	Fold
jams88	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£16.48
SlickJim	Fold
rancid	Raise		£0.40	£0.75	£8.83
biggs	Call		£0.40	£1.15	£11.63
jams88	Call		£0.40	£1.55	£16.08
Flop
		6 A 8
rancid	Check
biggs	Check
jams88	Bet		£1.00	£2.55	£15.08
rancid	Call		£1.00	£3.55	£7.83
biggs	Call		£1.00	£4.55	£10.63
Turn
		7
rancid	Check
biggs	Bet		£1.80	£6.35	£8.83
jams88	Raise		£3.70	£10.05	£11.38
rancid	Fold
biggs	All-in		£8.83	£18.88	£0.00
jams88	Call		£6.93	£25.81	£4.45
biggs	Show	5 9
jams88	Show	7 7
River
		5
biggs	Win	Straight to the 9	£24.41		£24.41

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
baronk13	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£1.44
scrumdown	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£8.43
	Your hole cards	A A
ballboy	Fold
jams88	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£23.60
Mco001	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£7.42
JohnConnor	Fold
baronk13	Fold
scrumdown	Fold
Flop
		5 3 K
jams88	Bet		£0.50	£1.25	£23.10
Mco001	Call		£0.50	£1.75	£6.92
Turn
		7
jams88	Bet		£1.30	£3.05	£21.80
Mco001	All-in		£6.92	£9.97	£0.00
jams88	Call		£5.62	£15.59	£16.18
jams88	Show	A A
Mco001	Show	5 7
River
		8
Mco001	Win	Two Pairs, 7s and 5s	£14.42		£14.42

This 1 was opponant dependant have generally stopped playing SC from the blinds but seen this guy stack off 2nd pair good kicker and know if i hit im getting a stack, sadly they have to have it sometimes i guess sigh

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Shankiiies	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£22.98
jams88	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£12.17
rainfray85	Big blind		£0.10	£0.25	£10.18
	Your hole cards	8 6
rainfray85	Check
cheeky162	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£6.65
jonerben	Raise		£0.20	£0.55	£7.49
zeenpeem	Call		£0.20	£0.75	£6.45
Shankiiies	Fold
jams88	Call		£0.10	£0.85	£12.07
rainfray85	Call		£0.10	£0.95	£10.08
cheeky162	Call		£0.10	£1.05	£6.55
Flop
		Q 10 K
jams88	Check
rainfray85	Check
cheeky162	Check
jonerben	Bet		£1.05	£2.10	£6.44
zeenpeem	Fold
jams88	Call		£1.05	£3.15	£11.02
rainfray85	Fold
cheeky162	Fold
Turn
		4
jams88	Check
jonerben	Bet		£3.15	£6.30	£3.29
jams88	Call		£3.15	£9.45	£7.87
River
		9
jams88	Bet		£3.29	£12.74	£4.58
jonerben	All-in		£3.29	£16.03	£0.00
jams88	Show	8 6
jonerben	Show	A K
jonerben	Win	Flush to the Ace	£14.82		£14.82

DrRunGood · May 2012

sorry mate got to say all these hands are avoidable if played correct

hand 1: should be raising pre flop and raising again on flop and not letting ppl hit you only bet out when you are against a poss str8

hand 2: aces are great so bet bit bigger pre at this level you will get called with 50 or 60 raise and then on flop you could have put in much bigger bet to get both value and find out where you are but as soon as he shoves i think it easy fold he aint doing that with less than 2 pair

hand 3: your calling out of pos should be fold pre and then end of that hand. but even coming in with the 2 big strong bets hes telling you he has hit flush and you have to assume it stronger than 8 high

just keep it simple no need to get fancy with aces or call gapped connectors out of pos

Swog · May 2012

hand 1:
Come in for a raise pre, as played check flop, as played turn is unlucky.

hand 2:
unlucky, can't see much wrong

hand 3:
don't mind call pre that much, shove flop.

Fabraclass · May 2012

In Response to Confidence in cash:

Trying to learn to play cash which i think i do pretty well in my actual play but... The last 3 days have been big losing days for me. I fire up 4 tables when i log in and for the 1st half hour make a slow steady profit maybe 60-80 bigs then i seem to take an inevitable badbeat or cooler which wipes out all my profit and then often folllowed by another 1 or 2 leaving me 1-2 BIs down. I fell like just getting up and leaving a table because i have won a couple of small pots is too weak and i will never show a profit. do i just have to stick with it and hope it evens out? Does anybody else have this trouble heres a few of the most recent unavoidable imo but could be wrong. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance SlickJim Small blind £0.05 £0.05 £12.46 rancid Big blind £0.10 £0.15 £9.23 Your hole cards 7 7 biggs Call £0.10 £0.25 £12.03 GREGSTER Fold frankban09 Fold jams88 Call £0.10 £0.35 £16.48 SlickJim Fold rancid Raise £0.40 £0.75 £8.83 biggs Call £0.40 £1.15 £11.63 jams88 Call £0.40 £1.55 £16.08 Flop 6 A 8 rancid Check biggs Check jams88 Bet £1.00 £2.55 £15.08 rancid Call £1.00 £3.55 £7.83 biggs Call £1.00 £4.55 £10.63 Turn 7 rancid Check biggs Bet £1.80 £6.35 £8.83 jams88 Raise £3.70 £10.05 £11.38 rancid Fold biggs All-in £8.83 £18.88 £0.00 jams88 Call £6.93 £25.81 £4.45 biggs Show 5 9 jams88 Show 7 7 River 5 biggs Win Straight to the 9 £24.41 £24.41 Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance baronk13 Small blind £0.05 £0.05 £1.44 scrumdown Big blind £0.10 £0.15 £8.43 Your hole cards A A ballboy Fold jams88 Raise £0.30 £0.45 £23.60 Mco001 Call £0.30 £0.75 £7.42 JohnConnor Fold baronk13 Fold scrumdown Fold Flop 5 3 K jams88 Bet £0.50 £1.25 £23.10 Mco001 Call £0.50 £1.75 £6.92 Turn 7 jams88 Bet £1.30 £3.05 £21.80 Mco001 All-in £6.92 £9.97 £0.00 jams88 Call £5.62 £15.59 £16.18 jams88 Show A A Mco001 Show 5 7 River 8 Mco001 Win Two Pairs, 7s and 5s £14.42 £14.42 This 1 was opponant dependant have generally stopped playing SC from the blinds but seen this guy stack off 2nd pair good kicker and know if i hit im getting a stack, sadly they have to have it sometimes i guess sigh Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Shankiiies Small blind £0.05 £0.05 £22.98 jams88 Big blind £0.10 £0.15 £12.17 rainfray85 Big blind £0.10 £0.25 £10.18 Your hole cards 8 6 rainfray85 Check cheeky162 Call £0.10 £0.35 £6.65 jonerben Raise £0.20 £0.55 £7.49 zeenpeem Call £0.20 £0.75 £6.45 Shankiiies Fold jams88 Call £0.10 £0.85 £12.07 rainfray85 Call £0.10 £0.95 £10.08 cheeky162 Call £0.10 £1.05 £6.55 Flop Q 10 K jams88 Check rainfray85 Check cheeky162 Check jonerben Bet £1.05 £2.10 £6.44 zeenpeem Fold jams88 Call £1.05 £3.15 £11.02 rainfray85 Fold cheeky162 Fold Turn 4 jams88 Check jonerben Bet £3.15 £6.30 £3.29 jams88 Call £3.15 £9.45 £7.87 River 9 jams88 Bet £3.29 £12.74 £4.58 jonerben All-in £3.29 £16.03 £0.00 jams88 Show 8 6 jonerben Show A K jonerben Win Flush to the Ace £14.82 £14.82
Posted by jams88

If their are very weak players on your table, stay,regardless of being up or down If their are a couple of very good players on your table, its time to leave, whether we are up or down.A good player could lose 14 days in a row mate, or have a 40 buyin downswing. Thats just the way the game works. Stay mentally strong and don't let confidence fluctuate too heavily, based on short term results If you think cash holdem has high variance, cash omaha or multi table tournaments have far more variance.

If you are down after playing cash for six months straight , while playing say 10 hours a week. Then this may be the time to thoroughly investigate why. Although after a month of losing you should be investigating why. Just ask yourself.

1 Am I playing against people I have a big edge over. As this is a requirement to be profitable in the game.

2 Am I gathering enough information on my opponents, to enable me to play better against.

3 Can I adapt more optimally against different types of players.Such as leaving very aggressive players bluff though the streets if the prone to doing this.

4 Am I putting in enough work off the table. Posting up hands on forums, watching training video's etc.

5 Am I managing my bankroll well. Ensuring you always have a least 30 buyins behind in cash. And if not, then its time to move down the stakes.

I've been guilty of not applying all of these, except 4. But we live and learn. So I hope you can benefit from what I have learned.

The old why why why analysis is often a good way of getting to the root of things. Ask yourself a why question, once answered, ask yourself why agiain, once answered ask yourself why again, and so on.

EvilPingu · May 2012

Hand 1: Raise pre. As played, once we hit the 7 on the turn, we have to go broke and UL that a fish limp/called pre with 95s.

Hand 2: Standard, unlucky.

Hand 3: With reads on opponent, pretty standard. I don't like CRAI on the flop as he's never potting it then folding, especially if he's a station and will call with 2nd pair as you said. We also have less than 50% equity at this point all the time and therefore, getting our money in is bad, so I like calling flop and fold unless a diamond comes on the turn. Once you hit, just shove the turn, no reason not to as he's never folding.

I disagree with DrRunGood saying the 2 bets means he has to have a flush, he can very easily have 2 pair, set, or AJ. UL that he had a better flush.

unknown_username · May 2012

Last thursday mate i had set over set 5 times and was the best player on site then the very next day i was on receiving end of set over set 5 times and felt like the worst player on site

Just gotta understand that these things are gonna happen but it does deflate you a bit.

In the hands you posted i prob get away from the aces but the rest as played seem ok and just the way it goes sometimes

Best of luck and try to stay positive

Daz.

KAM99 · May 2012

Ok, on the hands... UL for the most part and only really the AA i might be able to get away from.

But here is the main issue to address. You were playing 4 tables and are worried about coming away with a 1-2 buyin loss? Seriously? I know you said you've played poker for a number of years to me before, and so you should know this is so standard its not even a subject that should need talking about. Downswings can hit and hit long and hard, and certainly harder than a 2 buyin loss in one sesssion.

The fact is that you should not be worried about one session, or two, or ten, but dozens if not hundreds before you'll know your true outcomes. I mean depending how many hours and tables you play of course as you need somewhere in the region of 50,000-100,000 hands to get variance down below 1%. Forget how many as been a couple of years since I worked it out, but the point is short term results mean nothing in poker. Yes, you should monitor your sessions and how you played hands to see if you are playing badly, but if you are not then short term results don't matter.

Now, if you play for enough time and are down and its enough time that variance has balanced out then the problem is you. Reasons can be many, from playing wrong hands, combined or regardless of poston, not playing aggresive enough, or maybe to aggresively. The list is long, and that why we study our histories and see we could have or should have done something differently. We brain storm hands with other players to get their thoughts, we read, we watch videos and never stop trying to learn.

Anyway hope that helps, but honestly forget about bad sessions, as if you can't discount one bad session or one bad hand and move on then you'll alwaysbe discouraged at the tables, or worse get tilted.

Swog · May 2012

on the flush draw hand, you can't just call flop bet hoping to hit on the turn (1 in 4). To be completley honest i don't even think you have the right odds to call if your going to be folding if you dont hit your flush on the turn.
As i said before i'm happy shoving flop, since you have atleast 40% equity v's most of his range and theres £2 in there already. When you consider the slight possibility of him folding to your shove, i think its a standard shove.

High variance play i know, but if your comfortably rolled its fine.

Not a fan of calling a pot bet with a draw against a 60bb stack, ever!

rancid · May 2012

question what u do and why

1. why limp pre then bluff flop

2. nh ul, when oppo suddenly raises turn you could hero fold as this is always set/2 pr
Ask yourself why oppo doesnt' raise flop like this

3. fold pre or 3 bet, as it plays ul but that's the risk - also fold or shove flop

percival09 · May 2012

hand 1 raise pre to isolate. What're you doing on the flop? trying to steal? Betting for value? I wouldn't try and steal the pot as you have a pair which may be good and weak aces/overpairs will still call your bet which also means you shouldn't be betting 77 for value here. Yeah you're always going broke as played vs fish

hand 2 fine

hand 3 pre isn't the worst. I'd get it in on the turn but you're never folding

percival09 · May 2012

In Response to Re: Confidence in cash:

question what u do and why 1. why limp pre then bluff flop 2. nh ul, when oppo suddenly raises turn you could hero fold as this is always set/2 pr Ask yourself why oppo doesnt' raise flop like this 3. fold pre or 3 bet, as it plays ul but that's the risk - also fold or shove flop
Posted by rancid

why?

percival09 · May 2012

In Response to Re: Confidence in cash:

on the flush draw hand, you can't just call flop bet hoping to hit on the turn (1 in 4). To be completley honest i don't even think you have the right odds to call if your going to be folding if you dont hit your flush on the turn. As i said before i'm happy shoving flop, since you have atleast 40% equity v's most of his range and theres £2 in there already. When you consider the slight possibility of him folding to your shove, i think its a standard shove. High variance play i know, but if your comfortably rolled its fine. Not a fan of calling a pot bet with a draw against a 60bb stack, ever!
Posted by Swog

why?

he's in a 4way pot and a decent stack size bets strongly which probably means he's not folding to a raise - so why should hero raise and try to get it in with only a fd?

percival09 · May 2012

hero is in multiway pot on hand 3, c/c to try and hit his flush on the turn is optimal imo. he isn't getting the correct direct odds but the implied odds definitely makes up for it. vs most bets on the turn if I miss, I could fold and be happy about it

Swog · May 2012

80% of time flush misses on turn and you lose £1.
20% of time flush hits on turn, therefore you need to be sure you will win £5 (i.e. need to be sure you get over £3 out of him after you hit) Given your oop he may even check behind on turn, then you probably don't even get £3 out of him.

Factor in the times he has a higher flush or makes a house on you, it looks less and less promosing for you.

TBH i don't even mind a fold, but i think its a jam/fold on the flop. Send the decision his way!

percival09 · May 2012

you're making a mistake in presuming it's going to be a heads up pot - the key thing here is that it's a 4way pot and hero has good implied odds.

if you're calling pre with 86s and you hit a flush draw in a multi way pot you can't fold to this bet, and shoving isn't brilliant either imo. Agreed hero puts himself in a sticky situation here and should just fold pre

Confidence in cash

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