Could i have played this differently or just standard

IDONKCALLU

andrek_22Small blind 10.0010.001550.00chace1Big blind 20.0030.002095.00 Your hole cardsAJ   JJBLUEFold    ForyachtCall 20.0050.001290.00IDONKCALLURaise 80.00130.002995.00andrek_22Raise 160.00290.001390.00chace1Fold    ForyachtFold    IDONKCALLUCall 90.00380.002905.00Flop  A88   andrek_22Bet 190.00570.001200.00IDONKCALLUCall 190.00760.002715.00Turn  2   andrek_22Bet 380.001140.00820.00IDONKCALLUCall 380.001520.002335.00River  6   andrek_22All-in 820.002340.000.00IDONKCALLUCall 820.003160.001515.00andrek_22ShowAK   IDONKCALLUShowAJ   andrek_22WinTwo Pairs, Aces and 8s3160.00 3160.00

gracie24

Just one of those things. Only an 8 or k or q kicker was beaing you and blinds low with time to recover if you lost so some chips gone but still in.

rancid

fold pre, u don't wana be 3 bet by randoms out of the blinds this early and then call down ace high flop

if your going to play then fold turn

grantorino

I just fold pre readless. I know it's great odds, but we are behind if we play a big pot

AMYBR

I also lean strongly to fold pre.

We arent playing our hand here.

Our hand plays so bad vs range of hands that do this.

There will be exceptions obv i.e we are being overly aggro in LP resulting in seats playing back at us light with ATC.

But for the most part the very worse hand you'll see here are 2 9's (vry worst)

unknown_username

I must admit, when the reraise comes, i;m thinking AK,AQ . I want to see a J not an A. When it flops and we get a bet then i'm thinking that i'm behind so i'd fold...

1267

fold pre.

percival09

you're getting sexy odds pre but i'd fold without knowing anything about villains play post flop

meh i suppose if you call a 3b with AJ and you hit this you kinda have to go with it, but by the river you kinda know you're behind. This would only be ok if you knew villain is 3b wide and is very aggro post flop so will be bluffing all streets

edit: imo you have to go broke once called the 3b pre looking at villains stack - there's no point in you calling the 3b if you're going to fold on this board with the effective stack pretty low

KAM99

Ican see why most saying fold pre, but its pretty good odds for a call pre. That said though as played I think I'd call flop as well, but give him credi for ace at the turn and fold assuming readless the reraise was with a better ace. Not always the case, but to often is when facing consistant bet.

Fabraclass

In Response to Could i have played this differently or just standard:

andrek_22 Small blind   10.00 10.00 1550.00 chace1 Big blind   20.00 30.00 2095.00   Your hole cards A J       JJBLUE Fold         Foryacht Call   20.00 50.00 1290.00 IDONKCALLU Raise   80.00 130.00 2995.00 andrek_22 Raise   160.00 290.00 1390.00 chace1 Fold         Foryacht Fold         IDONKCALLU Call   90.00 380.00 2905.00 Flop     A 8 8       andrek_22 Bet   190.00 570.00 1200.00 IDONKCALLU Call   190.00 760.00 2715.00 Turn     2       andrek_22 Bet   380.00 1140.00 820.00 IDONKCALLU Call   380.00 1520.00 2335.00 River     6       andrek_22 All-in   820.00 2340.00 0.00 IDONKCALLU Call   820.00 3160.00 1515.00 andrek_22 Show A K       IDONKCALLU Show A J       andrek_22 Win Two Pairs, Aces and 8s 3160.00   3160.00
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Without good reads, I would fold pre. If over a decent sample size you have a read that somebody is 3 betting you a lot in blinds when you raise button, you can call here in position, as they could be 3 betting you with weaker aces, some weaker jacks eg qj j10 and j9 suited.

However in the early stages of a tournament I think the average players 3 betting range will be quite tight,and a lot their 3 betting hands will dominate you.

Given you decided to flat pre. I do like the fact that you flatted their bets post flop, given that you decided you were likely gonna go with the hand post flop if an Ace came, depending on how the board ran out.

I don't they are bluffing the turn very often(no flush draws out their), and I think you are beating hardly anything on the river that the average player is betting in this situation. You could fold turn.

grantorino

Surely we can't call pre flop tp and fold to 2 barrels with no reads.

rancid

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

Surely we can't call pre flop tp and fold to 2 barrels with no reads.
Posted by grantorino

Think we can versus random who would bet flop and check turn when called holding no ace, then we v/b river

Fabraclass

They could be bettin the turn with weaker Aces. So yeah you could call turn. However I would definitely fold river.

KAM99

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

They could be bettin the turn with weaker Aces. So yeah you could call turn. However I would definitely fold river.
Posted by Fabraclass

Not sure about this. I think if you plan to call the turn you can't fold the river to what he has left if a blank comes, as with what he has left he isn't going to not shove the river that often. His bet sizing was perfect for that and I think you either fold turn or call both, as not sure calling a turn and folding to a blank river is really excellent play, as nothing has changed, and you either like your hand or you don't.

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard : Not sure about this. I think if you plan to call the turn you can't fold the river to what he has left if a blank comes, as with what he has left he isn't going to not shove the river that often. His bet sizing was perfect for that and I think you either fold turn or call both, as not sure calling a turn and folding to a blank river is really excellent play, as nothing has changed, and you either like your hand or you don't.
Posted by KAM99

Agree with this - I think we either have to fold AJ on the turn, or decide go with it and call down when the river is a blank.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard : Not sure about this. I think if you plan to call the turn you can't fold the river to what he has left if a blank comes, as with what he has left he isn't going to not shove the river that often. His bet sizing was perfect for that and I think you either fold turn or call both, as not sure calling a turn and folding to a blank river is really excellent play, as nothing has changed, and you either like your hand or you don't.
Posted by KAM99

Nothing changed between flop and turn either. So why is it different when nothing changes between turn and river? Obv he won't double barrell as often as he cbets, he won't fire 3 bullets as often as he fires two either though

AMYBR

all true.

But this is why exp tells us to fold pre to avoid this jungle.

KAM99

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard : Nothing changed between flop and turn either. So why is it different when nothing changes between turn and river? Obv he won't double barrell as often as he cbets, he won't fire 3 bullets as often as he fires two either though
Posted by grantorino

Nothing has changed on the board, but both players have a lot more information at the turn. Villian knows that I have called a 3bet preflop and now called a cbet on an ace high board. How often am I floating with no hand on a rainbow board with not much in the way of draws? Not to often, though its possible I would do with a PP. So when I'm hero and villian fires a second barrel that is leaving him in a stack size situation that says he is highly likely to shove the river if I call the turn then I'm not thinking it's often he is barreling with air.

So for me the turn is where I'm going to to start thinking there is now a high chance he has an ace as well, and its jusr a question of if I'm out kicked. Sure this isn't always the way to think and maybe narrowing his range to much, but its not a stretch to be putting him on this type of hand based on the action. So for me as played the turn is the time you decide to lay it down or call it all the way.

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard : Not sure about this. I think if you plan to call the turn you can't fold the river to what he has left if a blank comes, as with what he has left he isn't going to not shove the river that often. His bet sizing was perfect for that and I think you either fold turn or call both, as not sure calling a turn and folding to a blank river is really excellent play, as nothing has changed, and you either like your hand or you don't.
Posted by KAM99

The board hasn't changed but your opponents value betting range can change. Their are some hands he will bet turn with that you are ahead of, but is less likely to bet the river with, as by calling an extra street the strength of your hand range increase, therefore their value betting range on the river should change. He may bet the turn with weaker aces then yours,or the same. But for the reasoning just described may not bet the river.

I have heard people say that if you called the turn you have to call the river because the board hasn't changed. But I don't subscribe to this view. Also in this hand you could have a number of eights, therefore the fear of this may cause them to be more careful about betting on the end as your calling range with better hands then theirs on the river is very wide And hands like AJ ,you may call two street with are not really beating anything on the river, therefore they may not see much value in betting hands on the river that they bet on the turn.

You are not calling or folding the turn because your hand is either good or not, and calling the river because if I was good on the turn I am good on the river. You are calling the turn because of the price you are being offered, as they can be value betting worse, and as they are unlikely to be bluffing and are unlikely to bet the river with a bluff, because our range is vey strong, and their are no flush draws they could be bluffing, or we could have.

Their is more of case for calling turn and then river, if flush draws miss etc. But if we have a balanced turn calling range, we cannot be exploited  by calling turn and folding river. I shall explain why.

By having a range of different hand strengths when calling the turn the opponent can't exploit us folding AJ on river by bluffing, because we have many hands we are snap calling the river with in our range. In the hand above we are snapping them with any 8. Therefore it is not a profitable bluff for them on the river, in the unlikely event that they are bluffing.If we fold the turn alot because we think if we call turn we have to call river aswell, opponents can exploit this, by betting flop and turn with gay abandon. And if we are always calling river when we call turn, opponent can exploit this by value towning us with better hands and never bluffing with worse hands on the river.

Alos your hand can improve form turn to river. Puttiing you ahead of hands that you were behind on the turn.

IDONKCALLU

whos to say he could of had kk or qq and hated the ace and still beats out each street thinking kings might be good here or qq i cant narrow the range to just ak  or aq with basically a click back min raise could have any hands jacks thru to kings or over play ace 10 

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Could i have played this differently or just standard:

whos to say he could of had kk or qq and hated the ace and still beats out each street thinking kings might be good here or qq i cant narrow the range to just ak  or aq with basically a click back min raise could have any hands jacks thru to kings or over play ace 10 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

If he has 1010-kk he will hate the ace. And if he bets the flop with these, almost all players will just shut down on the turn mate.An unknown could bet worse hands then yours on the flop and turn hare.

However on the river,their is very little value in betting a worse hand then yours. I can't see him committed 70 bbs and his tournament life on the end, by betting A9  for value, with his own free will. Surely he would want to check and just hope to take the money in the middle .