Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game

jams88

Anything wrong with this hand? Was my 3rd or fourth hand at this table don't know this particular villian suffice to say i have alot of notes on him now after just a couple of hands lol

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Robbo67	Big blind		£0.10	£0.10	£13.26
	Your hole cards	A Q
tariii12	Call		£0.10	£0.20	£21.34
darryl1976	Raise		£0.40	£0.60	£11.04
jams88	Raise		£1.20	£1.80	£9.03
Daniel150	Call		£1.20	£3.00	£9.67
Robbo67	Fold
tariii12	Fold
darryl1976	Call		£0.80	£3.80	£10.24
Flop
		2 8 K
darryl1976	Check
jams88	Bet		£2.50	£6.30	£6.53
Daniel150	Call		£2.50	£8.80	£7.17
darryl1976	Fold
Turn
		9
jams88	All-in		£6.53	£15.33	£0.00
Daniel150	Call		£6.53	£21.86	£0.64
jams88	Show	A Q
Daniel150	Show	K 7
River
		6
Daniel150	Win	Pair of Kings	£20.46		£21.10

BigHawk89

I wouldnt bet so much on flop, if the villian calls here hes more or less commited himself on turn with a 1/3 of his stack in the middle. The turn is a really tough spot because your out of poisition with just a flush draw and im presuming a call station behind who think top pair is the nuts, id probably do the same as you here out of frustration lol but sure the right play is too check and hope for a free river card.

KAM99

Hey Jams

I get the inkling my PM to you brings this post about.

As i said in that aggresive play in cash game is better as its harder to play against an aggresive person than a passive one. That said you do need to be aware of the table dynamics and the players on your table. If you have a calling station you can't bully them as they will call down even their whole stack light. So basically you do have to be careful who you go at with hard aggression or it will cause you more problems.

So in this case with this hand clearly villian is a calling station to be prepared to stack off like this with TPWK, which is horrible play and something you should have picked up on before attempting this kind of play. Against a villian like this you should not have bet so big on the flop for definate, and really either c/c the turn or even c/f if the price sucks as for him to call on the flop it is quite likely he has paired the king and you are drawing to your flush or maybe the ace as well.

The other thing you have to consider is the fact that you are NOT HU, and that matters. Yes its a good board for you to fire at because even though you haven't connected you do have a draw and if they don't have a king its hard to call. But again be careful how aggresive you get with more than one villian in the pot with you when you do miss a board more than this and its got cards that would fit their range for calling etc.

Age old case with low limits its difficult to bluff at those stakes, even if its a semi bluff. If they have something they will call if they have something, even if they shouldn't.

jams88

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

Hey Jams I get the inkling my PM to you brings this post about. As i said in that aggresive play in cash game is better as its harder to play against an aggresive person than a passive one. That said you do need to be aware of the table dynamics and the players on your table. If you have a calling station you can't bully them as they will call down even their whole stack light. So basically you do have to be careful who you go at with hard aggression or it will cause you more problems. So in this case with this hand clearly villian is a calling station to be prepared to stack off like this with TPWK, which is horrible play and something you should have picked up on before attempting this kind of play. Against a villian like this you should not have bet so big on the flop for definate, and really either c/c the turn or even c/f if the price sucks as for him to call on the flop it is quite likely he has paired the king and you are drawing to your flush or maybe the ace as well. The other thing you have to consider is the fact that you are NOT HU, and that matters. Yes its a good board for you to fire at because even though you haven't connected you do have a draw and if they don't have a king its hard to call. But again be careful how aggresive you get with more than one villian in the pot with you when you do miss a board more than this and its got cards that would fit their range for calling etc. Age old case with low limits its difficult to bluff at those stakes, even if its a semi bluff. If they have something they will call if they have something, even if they shouldn't.
Posted by KAM99

Havent received a pm

Thanks for your input much appriciated. At the time i didnt know that this player would stack of this light as had just joined the table but will definatly be looking for him again on th tables. By the turn i thought my ace was still live + flush draw so have about 1/4 of hitting the winner on the river but thought if i check it has to be to check fold so thought this bet would make most players fold a single pair oh well its been a decent days work overall so can't complain too much

jams88

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

I wouldnt bet so much on flop, if the villian calls here hes more or less commited himself on turn with a 1/3 of his stack in the middle. The turn is a really tough spot because your out of poisition with just a flush draw and im presuming a call station behind who think top pair is the nuts, id probably do the same as you here out of frustration lol but sure the right play is too check and hope for a free river card.
Posted by BigHawk89

How much do we bet on the flop to not look like we are cebetting for the sake of it? with the pot already so big are you thinking 1.50ish hoping that i get to see the next card for that price?

grantorino

I prob flat pre readless, 3bet fine though

Post flop fine hu, but 3way I'm nos so sure. Prob ok though 

trying to be more aggressive for the sake of it mightn't be great.. Think about why you want to play certain situations aggressively

jams88

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

I prob flat pre readless, 3bet fine though Post flop fine hu, but 3way I'm nos so sure. Prob ok though  trying to be more aggressive for the sake of it mightn't be great.. Think about why you want to play certain situations aggressively
Posted by grantorino

Not really for the sake of it this was one of the situations where back at nl4 its c/c flop thinking at nl10 should be betting nutflush draw on the flop and tyring to take the pot down rather than just giveing up when the aq misses.
3bet to isolate intial raiser didnt really work so well though...

BigHawk89

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : How much do we bet on the flop to not look like we are cebetting for the sake of it? with the pot already so big are you thinking 1.50ish hoping that i get to see the next card for that price?
Posted by jams88

Yeah more like 1.40ish.

IDONKCALLU

im checking the turn hoping u get a free river card 

KAM99

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : Havent received a pm Thanks for your input much appriciated. At the time i didnt know that this player would stack of this light as had just joined the table but will definatly be looking for him again on th tables. By the turn i thought my ace was still live + flush draw so have about 1/4 of hitting the winner on the river but thought if i check it has to be to check fold so thought this bet would make most players fold a single pair oh well its been a decent days work overall so can't complain too much
Posted by jams88

Highlighted above the most vital part. Till you got some idea of a player its dangerous to play draws as you did, because you have no idea what they will do.

As for it being a C/F, well thats possible, but not certain. You don't know exactly what he is holding, and as it happens there is a good chance he checks it back if you check because of his kicker. Not certain as he may well bet it, but even if he does he may give you the odds to call with your draw still. Certainly I don't like stacking off on a draw with one card to come with an unknown villian.

mattless

I do think playing draws agressively is fine hu, multiway though might need to proceed with a bit more caution. when 3 betting pre I think you should almost always be c betting. In this hand can be smaller £1.90ish.

Maybe c/c smallish turn bet, might have to fold to jam, but up to turn seems fine to me.

weedgi

i play it  exactly same way as u did jams ,think its fine

rancid

u want folds on turn, oppo is never folding

£1.70 on flop

check turn

grantorino

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

u want folds on turn, oppo is never folding £1.70 on flop check turn
Posted by rancid

How have u decided oppo never folds?

rancid

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : How have u decided oppo never folds?
Posted by grantorino

if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet

if oppo calls flop and your ahead because oppo calls with a draw, then no need to bluff turn

shove on turn only folds out 8x or underpairs to the board

don't think oppo's at this level fold enough to make these moves on the turn worthwhile
don't think semi bluffs on the turn with less equity are great plays tbh

liamboi11

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

i play it  exactly same way as u did jams ,think its fine
Posted by weedgi

I`m the same as weedgi dont know if its right or wrong tho lol

grantorino

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet if oppo calls flop and your ahead because oppo calls with a draw, then no need to bluff turn shove on turn only folds out 8x or underpairs to the board don't think oppo's at this level fold enough to make these moves on the turn worthwhile don't think semi bluffs on the turn with less equity are great plays tbh
Posted by rancid

Oppo can fold turn if he calls flop. It's tough call without Kx or better, and he should have some other hands esp under pairs in his range. We also have 9-15 outs if called and it helps balance our range for when we have hands we want to get in

Checking may be better here but most players have a range that calls one bet and folds to a double barrell

rancid

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : Oppo can fold turn if he calls flop. It's tough call without Kx or better, and he should have some other hands esp under pairs in his range. We also have 9-15 outs if called and it helps balance our range for when we have hands we want to get in Checking may be better here but most players have a range that calls one bet and folds to a double barrell
Posted by grantorino

Not so sure this is so for a 3 bet pot, if it was a std open and a call then I would expect our c bet to be called by a wide range and we have to double barrel our semi bluffs/bluffs

in effect I see a 3 bet then c bet as a double barrel, but that's just me

obviously once we 3 bet pre and we are oop we compound our spot by having to c bet flop and lead turn a lot

versus the majority at NL10 you won't go far wrong by playing your draws the same as NL4
We only need balance versus REGS

if we do 3 bet pre then I prefer a smaller c bet, but if called it still puts us in a stick spot when called - so much prefer this IP - oop just sucks playing draws aggro

percival09

+1 to what gt said

so many times players float the flop in a 3b pot to see if hero can double barrel (and by double barrel I do mean bet flop and turn)

In op, I'd understand shutting down on the turn if hero didn't have a fd because villain cold called, which is often dangerous readless. But with fd I'm usually always betting the turn because I think villain definitely folds all underpairs and sometimes a K

I wouldn't look too much into balancing your range at nl10, at all. I may be wrong but I think you're looking to much into it. More times than not, unless presented with a good enough reason not to do so, it is a bet on the turn

grantorino

Balancing range is prob more advanced a wording than I meant, but people at 10nl will remember a hand like that when you get a stack in with A hi, which should help you when you will be mostly value betting.  Certainly wouldn't worry much about balance at 10nl, but showing down this hand will affect your image

rancid

Think we agree to disagree, I just don't think you need to take the aggro line oop versus randoms at nl10

think we get stationed more than we get floated

weedgi

 : if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet
 

Posted by rancid

cant agree with with this rancid  ,flop calling ranges are much wider than turn calling ranges ,lot of the micro players including some regs dont belive a flop cont bet but give up to a turn bet
many opponents gonna be in tough spot with 10s js or qs theyre  im sure some fold on turn but call on flop

rancid

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

 : if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet   Posted by rancid

cant agree with with this rancid  ,flop calling ranges are much wider than turn calling ranges ,lot of the micro players including some regs dont belive a flop cont bet but give up to a turn bet many opponents gonna be in tough spot with 10s js or qs theyre  im sure some fold on turn but call on flop
Posted by weedgi

all subjective
don't know many that fold turn with less the pot bet behind
with smaller c bet and deeper stacks you could lead turn

when it's failry obvious we are getting stationed pre & on flop, semi bluffing turn loses it's appeal

maybe it's just me, I am just not the aggro !
prefer a cheap card than not

percival09

do you agree that villain is likely to fold JJ, QQ etc to a double barrel?

do you call a shove from villain if you check to him?

what do you do on the river if goes check check on the turn and you miss?

It's really not being about aggro, and I don't think you're wrong, I'm just trying to make sure you understand the other point of view. A check may well be the best choice here, but it really does depends on your image and villains image

rancid

In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:

do you agree that villain is likely to fold JJ, QQ etc to a double barrel? do you call a shove from villain if you check to him? what do you do on the river if goes check check on the turn and you miss? It's really not being about aggro, and I don't think you're wrong, I'm just trying to make sure you understand the other point of view. A check may well be the best choice here, but it really does depends on your image and villains image
Posted by percival09

I agree in certain 3 bet pots we can bluff here 100%, but not in this one
oppo is never folding with less than pot size

I don't think your wrong either )
I do agree that oppo will call with underpairs etc... and we can bluff em off their hand - but it's very stack and player dependant imo

Plus the idea of getting into 3 bet pots versus oppo that flat with QQ/JJ etc.. is not terrific
Surely we should be 3 betting versus oppo pre because they flat wide and we can exploit - only problem is when you then get stationed on flops - it's blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

ClintonH83

If the guy calls £1.20 pre with K7 off and then hits a K on the flop he isnt going anywhere!!! lol

You were just unlucky a spade didnt come so you could of taken all his money

I keep saying it, yeah be arggressive and make moves if your playing good players but dont do it against a bad player who will call £1.20 pre with K7 because like i say once he hits his K he isnt going anywhere!

percival09

hero 3b vs original raiser, random fish cold called w/ K7o so it wasn't really hero's fault