NL40 - Good Call?

GreekWay

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
5245	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£55.78
GreekWay	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£67.64
	Your hole cards	Q Q
SNOOPDOG88	Raise		£1.20	£1.80	£37.48
5245	Call		£1.00	£2.80	£54.78
GreekWay	Raise		£3.20	£6.00	£64.44
SNOOPDOG88	Fold
5245	All-in		£54.78	£60.78	£0.00
GreekWay	Call		£52.38	£113.16	£12.06
5245	Show	7 7
GreekWay	Show	Q Q
Flop
		A 9 8
Turn
		10
River
		J
GreekWay	Win	Straight to the Queen	£111.36		£123.42

We were playing 6-handed for two hours and both players were ok. I had positition on Snoopdog and I almost took hi half bankroll. He was cursing me in the chat box and then we decided to move in order to have position to him. I was literraly playing any two cards against him and was winning every single pot with my bets. 5245 I think was a better player but he started on the talbe with 15ish so I don't think he is a reg and he might had a gamble because it was Saturday night. 3 left and we played three handed and all of us played pretty loose. Opponent has 3-bet me couple of time pre-flop and many times I folded cause I had a marginal hand. Is it a good move and a profitable call over the long run?

percival09

this is an extremely easy call vs the nittiest of players, never mind with your reads

grantorino

I prefer a bigger 3bet. Snapcall the back raise shove

KAM99

Also prefer a bigger reraise with raise and a call already. That said its an EASY call of the shove, as his hand wasn't good enough to 3bet the BTN raise and all of a sudden he shoves? Sorry unbelieveable story most times and just wants a laydown from you or he really thinks he has the best hand, which would be odd way to play it still. Also its an easy call because right now only two hands are ahead of you, and when do we fold for that? Certainly not really based on how the action went so far.

kidwiz10

Am i the only one that actually debates folding here? ive seen it so many times where players either just limp or massivly over shove(all in) when they got AA KK and you fancy for racing for stacks against AK

You stated he started with £15 so id be more inclined to have a bit of a think when he flats the raise than over shoves your 3 bet as this is usually a slow played monster , on this situation it aint but more times than not i find it will be

percival09

in more situations than not villain w ill have exactly what he has, if he's been playing loosely he would've 3b himself. occasionaly villain might flat initial raise to allow hero to bluff in big blind, but even if he does that there are still hands he'd do it with which aren't as good as QQ, i.e. AK, AQ, JJ, 1010, 99 etc.. there's no way hero could ever fold qq here, esp with the table dynamics

donkeyplop

I had the same situation a few nights ago. I nealry folded qq to a 90bb shove, called just in time he had kings. nh gg

kidwiz10

Yea on some occasions can agree there but with him just flatting the original raiser  could have easily been to either get GREEK to come along or even induce the 3 bet

Ive found that quite a fair % of the time lately ppl just play there big holdings slow so they can check raise the flop but when he jams 150 bb push after just calling the original raiser thats sending bells on my ear to be honest

KAM99

In Response to Re: NL40 - Good Call?:

Am i the only one that actually debates folding here? ive seen it so many times where players either just limp or massivly over shove(all in) when they got AA KK and you fancy for racing for stacks against AK You stated he started with £15 so id be more inclined to have a bit of a think when he flats the raise than over shoves your 3 bet as this is usually a slow played monster , on this situation it aint but more times than not i find it will be
Posted by kidwiz10

There are times when this is right, but they are dependant. For example the limp/shove to a raise is normally done by real fish and is an easy fold in most cases, as its pretty obvious when its done, and certainly when they likely been playing passive etc right up till they do this. As for racing AK vs QQ. If I could do that every hand I'd do it and beg for some more cus I'm going to be a nice winner long term.

In a readless situation you have to call with QQ, but if you got a read that someone tends to shove all in consistantly only with AA and Kk then you can fold of course. In the case above this is a dead certain bang on call, as its highly likely a frustration shove hoping he is being reraised light or is ahead.

liamboi11

dont 3bet with qq if your not happy gettin it allin pre but I agree with others only really folding vs certain opponents i have reads or notes on nh.

kidwiz10

Kam isnt that a bit silly "readless so you have to call" personally id have folded him starting with £15 kinda makes that choice for me but i guess your right he was just having a gamble

kidwiz10

Liam what happens if you 3 betting to find out where you are and your against a known reg is is utter tight rarely plays a hand do you still get it in then if he 4 bets you or shuvs and you sat there with QQ?

kidwiz10

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
XXX	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£55.02
Patito	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	K K
kidwiz10	Raise		£2.50	£3.25	£159.83
aimeeflo1	Fold
xxx	Raise		£7.25	£10.50	£47.77
Patito	Fold
kidwiz10	Call		£5.00	£15.50	£154.83
Flop
		2 4 8
XXX	Bet		£9.00	£24.50	£38.77
kidwiz10	Call		£9.00	£33.50	£145.83
Turn
		9
XXX	Bet		£16.75	£50.25	£22.02
kidwiz10	All-in		£145.83	£196.08	£0.00
XXX	All-in		£22.02	£218.10	£0.00
kidwiz10	Unmatched bet		£107.06	£111.04	£107.06
XXX	Show	A A
kidwiz10	Show	K K
River
		A
XXX	Win	Three Aces	£109.24		£109.24

This is a reg at these levels and i was 99% sure he had AA or AK turns out i was half right just couldnt find a fold

kidwiz10

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
A1_SCADGE	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£21.85
D4RTT	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£22.88
	Your hole cards	Q Q
Curt360x27	Fold
XXX	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£64.21
Tee0013	Fold
kidwiz10	Raise		£5.50	£7.75	£43.75
A1_SCADGE	Fold
D4RTT	Fold
XXX	Raise		£11.00	£18.75	£53.21
kidwiz10	Call		£7.00	£25.75	£36.75
Flop
		3 2 8
XXX	Bet		£14.00	£39.75	£39.21
kidwiz10	All-in		£36.75	£76.50	£0.00
XXX	All-in		£39.21	£115.71	£0.00
XXX	Unmatched bet		£16.46	£99.25	£16.46
XXX	Show	K K
kidwiz10	Show	Q Q
Turn
		A
River
		J
XXX	Win	Pair of Kings	£97.45

Actually got notes on this player that tells me when he does this its pretty obvious im behind trying to fold that fold button yet again is a demanding task!, To be honest when i get 4 bet it was a must clear  fold or shove flatting was only ever gunna lead to more trouble! 

So 3 betting to find where you are i think is good as in most cases your never gunna get 4 bet lightly ... similar to GREEKS post id fold that shove but when its a small 4 bet its just to tempting not to flat when thats completely the wrong move i will learn from my mistakes some day... 

percival09

lol kidwiz, your argument is so flawed it's unbelievable

just because in a hand it was aa vs kk doesn't mean the above hand is a fold

you shouldn't 3b to find out where you are

it's burning money because there are so many good players that can exploit that

you should either 3b for value or a bluff, in the op so many hands are going to be crushed by qq. it amazes me that somebody actually disagrees and would fold because villain started with £15??? that makes no sense, surely it's probz mroe reason because it means he's probz not a reg

KAM99

In Response to Re: NL40 - Good Call?:

Kam isnt that a bit silly "readless so you have to call" personally id have folded him starting with £15 kinda makes that choice for me but i guess your right he was just having a gamble
Posted by kidwiz10

On the contary its a bit silly to fold readless. QQ has only 2 hands that are beating it right now, and a lot taht don't. I've seen people shoving all sorts of stupid hands at poker tables. Plenty of players will get it all over the line with A10+, and middle PP and up, and even a whole bunch that will do it lighter than that. So to fold the 3rd best starting hand to a shove based on a fear of AA or KK is well just bad poker in general.

Yes there are some occasions I can get away from QQ preflop, but not easy 100bb deep and would take some fair signs and reads on player/players to put it down. Its not that often that you get big PP's bang (really b u t t censored forum?) heads, so to run away from all ins with QQ would be bad readless.

Also as said above... betting for information is an old poker habit, and not something done now really. YOu are betting for value because you believe you have the best hand. Yes it may gain you information, but its not the reason for doing it.

Also, in your QQ hand it was not exactly the same as you got cold 4bet, which is starting to narrow his range and as if you say you have information on this guy you should have some picture of his 4bet range? Depending on levels I can 4bet pretty light at times to keep my range balanced, and of course if they did 3bet at all light their hand sudden looks a lot smaller, unless of course your the guy I 4bet with JJ and he called me with 107os and end up hitting a straight after all in flop. hehe

bugaloo

played well especially as you must have a really loose aggro image after betaing up on the player for an hour

np

grantorino

Kid wiz those hands you posted are both totally different to ops. Also raising turn if he only has AK or AA in Kk hand is not a good idea

EvilPingu

3-handed, Pocket Queens is a monster hand, and 140bb deep, I can never find a fold in a million years, unless I'm against the nittiest nit in the whole of nitsville.

We've 3bet to £3.60 total. The button will call with position a lot of the time, considering that 3 handed we can be 3betting quite wide, plus we've got a call from the SB too, so I think we can go a bit bigger here, I'd be 3betting around £4.40 - £5, I think.

The villain's line is really, really bizarre - flatting then 4bet shoving 140bb. I'd definitely have to think about it for a second, but without notes, it's a call. Reason being that I imagine the villain would probably make a standard 3bet with AA and KK, and I'm happy to flip as a marginal favourite against AK if he has that. Most of the time I think we're good here with Pocket Queens.

Generally, I find that the hands that people take this line with are usually mid-high PP's, so the sort of hand that he has (Although I'd expect to see something slightly stronger than 7s), where the villain doesn't know whether he wants to set mine or get all the money in pre-flop. I've seen people do this with AK/AQ too, flatting to see a flop and hit top pair before getting committed, then deciding when someone 3bets that they can now get all of the money in pre-flop.

THENUTS480

id be getting my chips in so fast in this spot its a weird-crazy line reshoving 140 bigs with 77 were in loonville!...i could never ever see how you would be losing in this spot i guess the villian could flip over ak from time to time (decided to slow play the hand out off posis then you have 3 bet therefore a lot more money in the pot and hes trying to squeeze max fold equity out off his hand).even so were a 56-44 fav so with the money in the middle we would have to call anyway.But i feel hes shoving a wider range then a top premium hand here and i would be very happy to call and expect a decent edge and if he did show cowboys or rockets in this spot make sure you get notes hes capable off flatting a pflop raiser then reshipping ainn 140 bigs with the goods!