NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?

GreekWay

In Response to NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

Opponent is loose, I had position on him and I was playing every single hand against him because he made calls with bottom pair and A-high in weird spots so I realise he is not a good player. I was winning by betting most of the hands we played (I was either beating him or I was firing many bullets) so I think against a bad/loose player K10 is alright to play in position. He started tilting, cursing and after an hour decided to movein order to have position on me. Question is simple: Can I find a fold on the river? Also could I do anything different?
Posted by GreekWay

 Your reads seem to be contradictory

Looks ok, but what's really important is whether he bets 3 streets with weak hands bluffs

GreekWay

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
izzydog625	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£16.63
davezzz999	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£42.91
	Your hole cards	K 10
5245	Fold
ricoramb03	Fold
X	Raise		£1.20	£1.80	£39.57
GreekWay	Call		£1.20	£3.00	£51.80
izzydog625	Fold
davezzz999	Call		£0.80	£3.80	£42.11
Flop
		7 J K
davezzz999	Check
X	Bet		£2.00	£5.80	£37.57
GreekWay	Call		£2.00	£7.80	£49.80
davezzz999	Fold
Turn
		8
X	Bet		£3.90	£11.70	£33.67
GreekWay	Call		£3.90	£15.60	£45.90
River
		K
X	Bet		£11.70	£27.30	£21.97
GreekWay	Call		£11.70	£39.00	£34.20
X	Show	7 7
GreekWay	Muck	K 10
X	Win	Full House, 7s and Kings	£37.20		£59.17

Opponent is loose, I had position on him and I was playing every single hand against him because he made calls with bottom pair and A-high in weird spots so I realise he is not a good player. I was winning by betting most of the hands we played (I was either beating him or I was firing many bullets) so I think against a bad/loose player K10 is alright to play in position. He started tilting, cursing and after an hour decided to movein order to have position on me.

Question is simple: Can I find a fold on the river?

Also could I do anything different?

percival09

if he's made calls with bottom pair and A high in weird spots surely you wouldn't fire many barrels against him bluffing?

GreekWay

Well I was value betting my top pairs and I was firing bullets because he was calling the flop and turn and folding the river.

KAM99

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

Well I was value betting my top pairs and I was firing bullets because he was calling the flop and turn and folding the river.
Posted by GreekWay

If this is accurate then maybe a fold is possible as he hasn't slowed down at all for the king on river. Ok, possible he has a jack and thinks the extra king makes it less likely you have a king, but still if he is fairly passive as you make him sound calling down streets chasing I don't like when they fire 3 streets like this.

I guess my read on if its possible to lay down would depend on how he had been betting hands previously and you seem to have spent enough time on table with him to have an idea if you think you are more often than not ahead when this occours. Against a good player I doubt I think I'm good here, but against a weaker one maybe.

Also, if you wish to call someone bad then I suggest you start doing the decent thing and editting their name out. its not really the nicest thing to do if you wish to disparage them while leaving name on the hand history.

GreekWay

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice? : If this is accurate then maybe a fold is possible as he hasn't slowed down at all for the king on river. Ok, possible he has a jack and thinks the extra king makes it less likely you have a king, but still if he is fairly passive as you make him sound calling down streets chasing I don't like when they fire 3 streets like this. I guess my read on if its possible to lay down would depend on how he had been betting hands previously and you seem to have spent enough time on table with him to have an idea if you think you are more often than not ahead when this occours. Against a good player I doubt I think I'm good here, but against a weaker one maybe. Also, if you wish to call someone bad then I suggest you start doing the decent thing and editting their name out. its not really the nicest thing to do if you wish to disparage them while leaving name on the hand history.
Posted by KAM99

Thanks for the advice. Done.

I was thinking that he may have a J. He was betting all three streets with any pair and I was check/calling if I had at least top pair.

EvilPingu

The totally standard bit

Firstly, pre-flop. I hate KT, most overrated pile of junk in Hold'em :') We have the button though, a peel is fine, I may 3bet sometimes as well.

On the flop, calling is fine. Raising is basically turning our hand into a bluff, absolutely no reason to raise, flat call is totally standard.

On the turn, quite a few hands have just picked up extra equity, such as Axhh, AT, possibly 98 and T8, plus he may have a hand like QT or AQ which was going to double barrel anyway that we beat. There is a lot of hands on the turn which we beat, so I think calling is fine.

The interesting bit

The river - Not only have his draws missed, but we've improved to trips, so if the villain has AA, J8, 78, we've just gone back ahead. In a way, it's actually a bad river card for us, because although we've now gone ahead of a couple of hands which were beating us, our opponent is now very rarely, if ever, going to fire a third barrel with a busted draw, because when we call the turn, we're never folding that river card, so we actually lose a lot of value from a player possibly firing a third barrel with missed draws, and the possible backdoor hearts got there too if he's c-bet Ax of hearts then barreled the turn, so although I've now hit trips, I'm not doing cartwheels around the room either.

On this board, when our opponent triple barrels, it's because he's either got it, or he's been barreling with equity throughout and he's missed on the river. However, a good player would recognise that if you're calling on the turn, you are never folding a made hand when the King pairs on the river, as if you thought you were good on the turn you'll still think you're good on the river. If your opponent bets a missed draw, then you're only ever folding to a bet on the river when you have a missed draw yourself, having called two streets, so I think most of the time, a missed draw is just going to give up here, especially if it's something like A10 which has showdown value against other missed draws which will often check behind. 

For that reason, I think it becomes easier to possibly find a fold. Despite the fact we've rivered trips, it's actually not a great card for us, although I don't think a call is bad if you think the opponent can triple barrel a worse made hand (AA, QQ, AJ, K9?) or that he might not realise that the river is a really bad card for him to fire a third barrel with a busted draw. That depends entirely on your reads on the villain. I don't mind the call on the river, and I don't think many players would river trips then decide to fold ingame, myself included.

I think the only real mistake would be if you raised the river, and you haven't, so I think it's okay. I think a fold or a call is fine.

THENUTS480

As said earlier this looks a pritty strong hand as hes got 4 streets off value out off you pre,flop,turn,river .As the flop is a rainbow flop they isnt many missed draws except gutshots and q10.Its very player dependant i dont think the river changes the hand much becuase the hands he gets 3 streets off value from are all beating us (except maybe aces if he is a player that can value bet really thin).But the sizing off the river looks like were beat.He took you down 3 streets off value town it happens to the best off us .ps with having psoistion on the hand it dosent reaaly matter in this pacific hand as are opponent is multi barreling all streets so therefor we arent ablr to pot control the hand.I just feel we could maybe make a good fold here on the grounds you have explained hes calling light so wait for the goods get more streets off value out off your made hands if he calling so thin and having posistion you have to ajust your style and value bet more thin if he paying off with the junk you say just take him to value town wen you have the goods instead off risking chips in difficult spots

unknown_username

Not an easy fold. I probably call the river mostly too but it should be foldable, have to be playing well to put this down.

Basically, the second K arrives and yet he still bets and bets a decent size, so he doesnt look too concerned about the K on the river or the backdoor flush, so what are we beating? 

AMYBR

Given betting through streets making trips shouldnt really change things massively.  Only thing that would change for me would be "is he VBing this strong despite some combi draws getting there on river".  C/c line is fine, can hero fold but is marginal/read dependant.

IDONKCALLU

is there any 1 folding pre here because i know i would k 10 is never a good hand against a opening raise when flop is k high can u really say your ahead here against the range of a opening raise preflop u could be dominated i think the big mistake is calling preflop 

rancid

fold or 3 bet btn pre

a/p -

flop is fine
turn is fine
river is so horrible when oppo bets this size, you could hero fold but you have to call and pray oppo got AA/K9 )
Like what are we beating !

percival09

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

fold or 3 bet btn pre a/p - flop is fine turn is fine river is so horrible when oppo bets this size, you could hero fold but you have to call and pray oppo got AA/K9 ) Like what are we beating !
Posted by rancid

Why?

rancid

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice? : Why?
Posted by percival09

why is calling better

percival09

I didn't say it was.

I think calling is ok though, it gives you an opportunity to play through the streets vs a fish who is likely to donk off with worse. I would sometimes fold K10 vs some opponents but vs this guy I wouldn't. Sometimes I 3b but not very often at all, imo it depends if hero knows villains 3b calling ranges etc... to see if it'd be profitable. I'd only 3b if I knew villain would call with worse, like a worse K, and if he folds to cbets etc...

But I didn't say calling was better, I was just asking you to expain if you could

rancid

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

I didn't say it was. I think calling is ok though, it gives you an opportunity to play through the streets vs a fish who is likely to donk off with worse. I would sometimes fold K10 vs some opponents but vs this guy I wouldn't. Sometimes I 3b but not very often at all, imo it depends if hero knows villains 3b calling ranges etc... to see if it'd be profitable. I'd only 3b if I knew villain would call with worse, like a worse K, and if he folds to cbets etc... But I didn't say calling was better, I was just asking you to expain if you could
Posted by percival09

if oppo is that bad, I 3 bet for value

percival09

you don't need to 3b a player because they're bad. You want to keep them in the pot so if they fold to 3b a lot what's the point in doing that? What if villain 4bets? I take it you'd fold because you wouldn't have any reads? Which means you originally 3betted for info more than anything

rancid

In Response to Re: NL40 - Can I find a fold in the river and advice?:

you don't need to 3b a player because they're bad. You want to keep them in the pot so if they fold to 3b a lot what's the point in doing that? What if villain 4bets? I take it you'd fold because you wouldn't have any reads? Which means you originally 3betted for info more than anything
Posted by percival09

maybe it's just me then

op states oppo calls with btm pr/ace high - why would you not 3 bet pre for value agaist a very loose player

it would seem to me this oppo would flat 3 bets a lot making it very profitible to do so

Swog

on the pre-flop situation, i don't paticularly like the call either. Alot of the time you make loosing plays by calling down with a weak king or something.

In general i like raising the button here, as the opponent could easily expect you to do this with worse. Here i fold i don't like having a 40bb stack in the blinds who can stack of lighter, forcing you to fold.