Played Awfully

Doubleblow

I reckon I played this hand about as bad as you can but, I was left with an 'interesting decision'. Tell me all the bad bits leading up to the all in shove and whether or not you would have called at this point.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
nug82	Small blind		1500.00	1500.00	92324.04
Doubleblow	Big blind		3000.00	4500.00	54810.25
	Your hole cards	Q 9
MADMOO	Fold
melvm	Fold
nug82	Raise		4500.00	9000.00	87824.04
Doubleblow	Call		3000.00	12000.00	51810.25
Flop
		J 5 A
nug82	Check
Doubleblow	Check
Turn
		Q
nug82	Bet		6000.00	18000.00	81824.04
Doubleblow	Raise		12000.00	30000.00	39810.25
nug82	All-in		81824.04	111824.04	0.00

 

KAM99

I'm not a huge fan of the call preflop. I can see why its not the worst thing to do as you are in postion and are getting 3:1 on the call. That said you have sub 20bb so not sure I love playing this hand, and even if you do you'd have to be good player post flop and have good reads on person you against. So for me fold it pre really and wait for better spots.

Post flop I'd like to have known what you were thinking with your line here to really comment on it. I mean you check back the flop and then decided to min raise when he leads the turn. So did you just think he had a queen and could get him off it? If so not sure a min raise would, but it might I guess. As if he does have a queen odds are he has better one than you, or he has lots better than you right now.

Which brings us to his shove, which says he has lots better than you 99% of the time. So while you've put out half your stack and the pots odds are big I don't think you can call here due to the fact you so likely well beat and you still have 10bb to shove in a better spot and maybe stay in the tournament. My guess is he has better two pair, a set of queens or the straight right now, as with whats out there he is never bluffing for me here, as he thinks you can't fold due to the price.

So summary. Don't play the hand, you don't have this happen. its just not worth it with only 20bb left.

percival09

I fold or shove pre

turn just call, why would you raise?

Doubleblow

Agree totally with your analysis KAM. Best thing I could have done would have been to fold pre-flop.

Why did I call with less than 20 x BB and 2 x hole cards that don't play particularly well? Dunno. I should have waited for a better spot. As for shoving pre as percival suggests, never crossed my mind and I don't think I ever would have. 

If he's bluffing its a very strong bluff.

No one suggested I go all in after his raise? Is there any justification to do that?
 

KAM99

In Response to Re: Played Awfully:

Agree totally with your analysis KAM. Best thing I could have done would have been to fold pre-flop. Why did I call with less than 20 x BB and 2 x hole cards that don't play particularly well? Dunno. I should have waited for a better spot. As for shoving pre as percival suggests, never crossed my mind and I don't think I ever would have.  If he's bluffing its a very strong bluff. No one suggested I go all in after his raise? Is there any justification to do that?  
Posted by Doubleblow

Kind of not seeing the point of this either. Yes you add to your stack if he does have nothing and folds, which is quite possible, but think I'd only be considering this vs someone that was open raising a lot to blind steal. To much risk for me to think about shoving a hand that is barely better than average poker hand (Q7). You have 20bb nearly before this hand and aren't desperate, and so think better spots to think about picking up pots. Sure occasionally a risk is ok, but not sure I'm thinking about it with this hand without a villian thats been stealing a lot and even then not sure I'd bother.

GELDY

Does the context change things? This is the FT bubble (or just before), if I'm correct, in the 309 runner mini-open. Presumably it is more important to be protecting one's blinds at this stage because if you seem to be weak you will be picked off.  So assuming this justifies being in the pot then check the flop, reraise the turn makes sense? But has to be better than min-raise to get the job done.

BorinLoner

A 3-bet shove pre-flop in this hand wouldn't be terrible. A stack of 15BB-25BB is a good size for a 3-bet shove and we started the hand with 19BB here. The reason it seems a little excessive is that your opponent has only min-raised and so it's less rewarding to you than if he had made a 3x raise. If you think about it, though, a standard 3-bet would be to around 6BB and that would represent 1/3 of your stack, which is a bad proportion of your stack to raise under almost any circumstances. So if you had AK, AQ, AJ, QQ, JJ, TT, etc, you would probably shove here as well. Adding 15% to your stack without a showdown is no bad thing.

The fact that this is blind-on-blind changes the dynamic as well. Many players in an MTT will raise from the Small Blind when it's folded to them with any two cards. Almost all will do so with a wide range. This means that our 3-bet shove is going to get through a huge majority of the time. The hands which he can call with will make up a very small portion of his range unless we have a particular read on our opponent to suggest that a) he often gives walks, b) never steals or c) rarely folds after raising pre-flop.

Only AA, KK, and QQ have us really crushed here and that's probably a tiny portion of his range, so even if he calls we're likely to have at least a 30% chance in the hand. Considering the chance that he'll fold massively outweighs the chance that he'll call and win, you can make a fair defence of a shove pre-flop. Obviously, the more often you do this, the more predictable it becomes and the more likely you are to be called.

It definitely should never be a call pre-flop. With 19BB we can't afford to be making speculative calls at all, regardless of position, and Q9 is definitely a speculative hand. Fold or shove are both fine.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Played Awfully:

Does the context change things? This is the FT bubble (or just before), if I'm correct, in the 309 runner mini-open. Presumably it is more important to be protecting one's blinds at this stage because if you seem to be weak you will be picked off.  So assuming this justifies being in the pot then check the flop, reraise the turn makes sense? But has to be better than min-raise to get the job done.
Posted by GELDY

I'm not sure that protecting your blinds is ever important. If the idea of "Protecting your blind" leads you to play bad hands, out of position then it's bound to be a bad thing. The important thing is to not let yourself get blinded away. As long as you can steal other peoples' blinds or win enough bigger pots, playing in position, then it doesn't matter that we give up our own blinds.

EvilPingu

Shove or fold pre. I never really want to be playing Q9o out of this stack. Folding is never a big mistake, and shoving here depends how much he's been opening from the small blind, and whether you've been 3bet shoving much and how likely you are to get called. I'd definitely consider 3bet shoving a hand like Q9 here, especially if I've been playing tight until now.

I think if you're going to have a stab at the pot at any stage, it should be on the flop once he's checked to you. Stick in a 6k bet, if he folds you win the pot, if he's got anything then you'll find out about it soon enough.

I don't see the point of your minraise on the turn. Our hand has now picked up showdown value, but there's no value in raising here because we'll never get action from a worse hand. If you think Q9 is the best hand, then the best thing to do here would be to flat call on the turn and probably just call him down unless he does something weird on the river.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Played Awfully:

Shove or fold pre. I never really want to be playing Q9o out of this stack. Folding is never a big mistake, and shoving here depends how much he's been opening from the small blind, and whether you've been 3bet shoving much and how likely you are to get called. I'd definitely consider 3bet shoving a hand like Q9 here, especially if I've been playing tight until now. I think if you're going to have a stab at the pot at any stage, it should be on the flop once he's checked to you. Stick in a 6k bet, if he folds you win the pot, if he's got anything then you'll find out about it soon enough. I don't see the point of your minraise on the turn. Our hand has now picked up showdown value, but there's no value in raising here because we'll never get action from a worse hand. If you think Q9 is the best hand, then the best thing to do here would be to flat call on the turn and probably just call him down unless he does something weird on the river.
Posted by EvilPingu

+1

Doubleblow

Thanks for you input guys - been really useful. Geldy is about right in the context. It was the mini-open I think it was after the bubble but still in the low cashing out range, so still quite a bit to play for. In my hand history its about 5 pages down if that gives any clue.

I folded after his shove on the turn, cursing myself for needlessly losing 15000 which I couldn't really afford to do at this stage and with my stack size. I got a couple of good hands after this debacle and managed 6th place. Nug82 went to win.
 
If it was a bluff, well done on him but I don't believe that in this situation I could realistically call.   

In summary, taking your feedback in to account:

I should really have folded pre-flop.
If I was going to raise, it should have been after he checked on the flop.
If we get to the turn I should have just flat called and then checked him down on the river.

Note to self (again!), if you keep on playing rubbishy starting hands you'll keep on getting yourself in to trouble.