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Playing Against 'Bad' Players

edited December 2013 in Poker Chat
I've noticed a few people on the forum moaning about 'idiot' players and how 'hard' it is to play against them. I've been listening to this audio book about the correct poker mindset, and there was 1 section that I thought was quite relevant/interesting when it comes to trying to put opponents on hands/ranges. Most of you probably already know this but I always find it's good to repeat things over and over in poker to make it stick.

Basically there are multiple levels any given player will be thinking on...

Level 0 - What cards do I have?

Level 1 - What cards does my opponent have?

Level 2 - What cards does my opponent think I have?

Level 3 - What cards does my opponent think that I think he's got?

Obviously these can go on and on forever and that's how meta-game starts but for the most part you're only gonna come across them 4 levels. And it's key to be thinking ONE level above your opponent, no more, no less. If you're thinking at level 2 and he's thinking at level 0, it's completely pointless cos he aint thinking about what you have, so there's no point representing hands etc.

So in summary, you need to figure out what level these guys are thinking on (mostly level 0) before you decide how to play against them.

Comments

  • edited June 2012
    I know that he knows that I know he knows that he knew before I knew that he knew that I should have AA !
  • edited June 2012
    Sky has the poorest level of opponents bar none at micro stakes.

    It's really frustrating when you're having one of those days where the awful players are hitting everything and taking your money, and i have been guilty of calling them mugs because it's so annoying but it is clear that if you just carry on you'll eventually take their money.

    I don't know whether it's a good or bad thing about the standard on here though. It'll bring more sharks for sure as soon as the upgrades come along but as long as there's enough fishfood to go round then it should be ok.

    What's not in doubt is that the standard is horrendous and is getting worse, but it just brings little annoyances like raising 4p into £1.20 pots and going to pots with AA 6-handed etc. In the long run i'm finding my profits shooting up though.
  • edited June 2012
    this donk always wins on bad cards lol
  • edited June 2012
    Lol.

    It's strange though with all the free advice that's out there - i mean, you don't even have to have Sky Tv to watch the live shows and the repeats on 365 and every single week Ryan and co. try to educate and yet it goes in one ear and out the other. Still, without bad players we wouldn't be able to make any money as previously said.
  • edited June 2012
    #completelymissedpointofthread
  • edited June 2012
    No i didn't, i'm agreeing with you that we want those players and that you need to be thinking on a higher level, i just elaborated on my thoughts a bout their play.
  • edited June 2012
    I'm at Level 0 and I got that wrong when I called a  4x raise in a DYM with 88 and then noticed  I had 86 off. I miised the flop too.
  • edited June 2012
    You can take a horse to water........................

    very simply put, bet your hand versus levels 0's, if they raise then fold

    can't go far wroung tbh

    in essence, you have to adjust to your oppo's level of thinking - that's why level 4's who can not beat nl4 struggle because they think oppo's are thinking on level 1/2 /> !
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    I've noticed a few people on the forum moaning about 'idiot' players and how 'hard' it is to play against them. I've been listening to this audio book about the correct poker mindset, and there was 1 section that I thought was quite relevant/interesting when it comes to trying to put opponents on hands/ranges. Most of you probably already know this but I always find it's good to repeat things over and over in poker to make it stick. Basically there are multiple levels any given player will be thinking on... Level 0 - What cards do I have? Level 1 - What cards does my opponent have? Level 2 - What cards does my opponent think I have? Level 3 - What cards does my opponent think that I think he's got? Obviously these can go on and on forever and that's how meta-game starts but for the most part you're only gonna come across them 4 levels. And it's key to be thinking ONE level above your opponent, no more, no less. If you're thinking at level 2 and he's thinking at level 0, it's completely pointless cos he aint thinking about what you have, so there's no point representing hands etc. So in summary, you need to figure out what level these guys are thinking on (mostly level 0) before you decide how to play against them.
    Posted by Lambert180
    As a bad (awful actually ) player, that is a load of  TOSH
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Playing Against 'Bad' Players : As a bad (awful actually ) player, that is a load of  TOSH
    Posted by utopian9
    Well thats all very concise 'n all, but to be of any use, you HAVE to say why.
  • edited June 2012
    You forgot Level -1  What's a Card ;o).  Played a few of them in my time ;o)
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Playing Against 'Bad' Players : As a bad (awful actually ) player, that is a load of  TOSH
    Posted by utopian9
    A good well thought out response there.

    It is not 'tosh' and is very true if you actually think about it. So let's have an example....

    Your opponent is level 0 but you're thinking on level 2, so you're thinking abuot what cards your opponent thinks you have and so you may 'represent' a hand, and bluff the river pretending you have hit your flush. The problem here is Mr Level 0 is only looking at his cards and thinks 'I've got 2pair, I call', so your bluff fails. If you'd have just been thinking at Level 1, you'd think he has 2pr (or something of the like) and give up (not bluff).

    This is one of the main reasons why a large amount of players at 4NL are exploitable, because they only think about what they have (Level 0), so if you are capable of thinking at Level 1 and put them on a hand/range, you can assess if you are ahead or not and bet accordingly, so you simply bet when you think you're ahead and don't when you're not.

    This does not mean that players capable of Level 4 thinking cannot beat 4NL, I have no doubt Scotty77 could beat 4NL, he just needs to realise that most people have Level 0 thinking, and so start using Level 1 thinking (ABC poker).
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    You can take a horse to water........................ very simply put, bet your hand versus levels 0's, if they raise then fold can't go far wroung tbh in essence, you have to adjust to your oppo's level of thinking - that's why level 4's who can not beat nl4 struggle because they think oppo's are thinking on level 1/2 /> !
    Posted by rancid
    I have never come across this saying but I can already think of two wrong endings:

    You can take a horse to water... to watch it drown.
    You can take a horse to water... but you can't take water to a horse.
  • edited June 2012
    TBF - I'm usually thinking............is he min betting bacause he is playing a monster or is he min betting bacause he is fishing or is he min betting because he is new to sky poker.


    Basically there are multiple levels any given player will be thinking on...

    Level 0 - What cards do I have? NO (We can see them - Why would we ask what cards we have?)

    Level 1 - What cards does my opponent have? NO (We want to take down the pot before the river preferably) so its irrelevent. Unless he shoves your 3 bet or re-raises then its............What cards does my opponent have?

    Level 2 - What cards does my opponent think I have? NO It's (What cards DO I want my opponent to think I have?)

    Level 3 - What cards does my opponent think that I think he's got? NO It's (What cards DO I want my opponent to think I know he has got?


    :)
  • edited June 2012
    Sorry going to be boring and give a serious response.

    Thanks because although I know this it is a big weekness in my game which is giving your opponent too much credit and you think how could not see what I had or was representing.

    I think it important to think about these things as if you play a lot you can just be too close to something to relise where you are going right or wrong.

    I usualy dont think too much as a personal view on books tapes etc but just stoping and re thinking about this again has been very helpful which I do find rare with these type of things, so thank you for posting 
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players : I have never come across this saying but I can already think of two wrong endings: You can take a horse to water... to watch it drown. You can take a horse to water... but you can't take water to a horse.
    Posted by Wilhelm

    you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink

    In relation to educating people playing better poker )
    So it doesn't matter what you do or what SKY put out there for free, some people just don't wanna learn
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players : you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink In relation to educating people playing better poker ) So it doesn't matter what you do or what SKY put out there for free, some people just don't wanna learn
    Posted by rancid
    Correct, some people are happy to donk about after a hard day's work at the office, with money they can afford to spew off.. They are just looking for a release and they dont need to be told that they had 26.4% equity, or that they shouldnt limp call, or that they should read a book about range merging lol..  they simply don't care, And this is fair enough imo.

    each to their own innit...

    I dont get this, cant play bad players thing... Give me a table of 5 "bad" players or 5 sharks, i know which one i would choose to sit at if i wanted to win money! But if i fancied a bit of fun, id be happy to sit at the table of sharks for the lolz, as long as i could afford to lose the money.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players : Correct, some people are happy to donk about after a hard day's work at the office, with money they can afford to spew off.. They are just looking for a release and they dont need to be told that they had 26.4% equity, or that they shouldnt limp call, or that they should read a book about range merging lol..  they simply don't care, And this is fair enough imo. each to their own innit... I dont get this, cant play bad players thing... Give me a table of 5 "bad" players or 5 sharks, i know which one i would choose to sit at if i wanted to win money! But if i fancied a bit of fun, id be happy to sit at the table of sharks for the lolz, as long as i could afford to lose the money.
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    exactly, they are just having fun - you come across these people live and they are just not intrested in learning
    just a bit of gamble for them, it's nice to have a gamble - I still do )

    If your not playing as al iving then why not gamble, and play slightly against the odds :D
    The amount of outdraws I have had latley I might just start, so tilting !

  • edited December 2013
    Yo!

    Just thought I'd bump this cos I think it's an interesting topic and might come in handy for a few of the newer forum posters.
  • edited December 2013
    well least i know where i go wrong now, im going to try thinking next time.
  • edited December 2013
    Depends on what your view of a bad player is! do you find a guy (or gal) playing abc or one who varies there play easier to predict, to me its easy to end up with egg on your face but it also sows a seed of doubt, example been this wednesday had AA busted in both main and mini with a wet board on each, than played a couple of dyms also by busting a couple of guys with premium hands to break even for the night, its all about reading the table and knowing when to get out of dodge, which is my biggest problem! enjoyed playing against you so as a special request go easy on me! gl for the coming new year always enjoy your posts!
    +1 to rancid and greghoggs posts
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    I've noticed a few people on the forum moaning about 'idiot' players and how 'hard' it is to play against them. I've been listening to this audio book about the correct poker mindset, and there was 1 section that I thought was quite relevant/interesting when it comes to trying to put opponents on hands/ranges. Most of you probably already know this but I always find it's good to repeat things over and over in poker to make it stick. Basically there are multiple levels any given player will be thinking on... Level 0 - What cards do I have? Level 1 - What cards does my opponent have? Level 2 - What cards does my opponent think I have? Level 3 - What cards does my opponent think that I think he's got? Obviously these can go on and on forever and that's how meta-game starts but for the most part you're only gonna come across them 4 levels. And it's key to be thinking ONE level above your opponent, no more, no less. If you're thinking at level 2 and he's thinking at level 0, it's completely pointless cos he aint thinking about what you have, so there's no point representing hands etc. So in summary, you need to figure out what level these guys are thinking on (mostly level 0) before you decide how to play against them.                                                                      
    Posted by Lambert180
    AS A NEW FAIRLY NEW PLAYER THIS IS VERY HELPFUL TO ME I HAVE WROTE THIS DOWN AND WILL TRY AND USE IT TO IMPROVE MY GAME THANKS LAMBERT
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    Depends on what your view of a bad player is! do you find a guy (or gal) playing abc or one who varies there play easier to predict, to me its easy to end up with egg on your face but it also sows a seed of doubt, example been this wednesday had AA busted in both main and mini with a wet board on each, than played a couple of dyms also by busting a couple of guys with premium hands to break even for the night, its all about reading the table and knowing when to get out of dodge, which is my biggest problem! enjoyed playing against you so as a special request go easy on me! gl for the coming new year always enjoy your posts! +1 to rancid and greghoggs posts
    Posted by ryderroo

    I think you missed the point I was making. I'm not calling anyone bad, I was referring to the people that say stuff like 'I can't beat 4NL cos everyone is so bad' OR 'you can't beat £2 BHs cos everyone is so bad and just calls with any two cards'.... if they're really that bad and you still can't beat them, then you're the one doing something wrong.

    In short it's about figuring out how your opponent thinks and thinking 1 step higher. So if theyaint thinking enough to put you on a range, what's the point in trying to rep something and so on.
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    In Response to Re: Playing Against 'Bad' Players : I think you missed the point I was making. I'm not calling anyone bad, I was referring to the people that say stuff like 'I can't beat 4NL cos everyone is so bad' OR 'you can't beat £2 BHs cos everyone is so bad and just calls with any two cards'.... if they're really that bad and you still can't beat them, then you're the one doing something wrong. In short it's about figuring out how your opponent thinks and thinking 1 step higher. So if theyaint thinking enough to put you on a range, what's the point in trying to rep something and so on.
    Posted by Lambert180
    This is great advice and possibly why I was struggling with some of the lower DYMs. Just trying to be too damn clever for my own good. 
  • edited December 2013
    In Response to Playing Against 'Bad' Players:
    I've noticed a few people on the forum moaning about 'idiot' players and how 'hard' it is to play against them. I've been listening to this audio book about the correct poker mindset, and there was 1 section that I thought was quite relevant/interesting when it comes to trying to put opponents on hands/ranges. Most of you probably already know this but I always find it's good to repeat things over and over in poker to make it stick. Basically there are multiple levels any given player will be thinking on... Level 0 - What cards do I have? Level 1 - What cards does my opponent have? Level 2 - What cards does my opponent think I have? Level 3 - What cards does my opponent think that I think he's got? Obviously these can go on and on forever and that's how meta-game starts but for the most part you're only gonna come across them 4 levels. And it's key to be thinking ONE level above your opponent, no more, no less. If you're thinking at level 2 and he's thinking at level 0, it's completely pointless cos he aint thinking about what you have, so there's no point representing hands etc. So in summary, you need to figure out what level these guys are thinking on (mostly level 0) before you decide how to play against them.
    Posted by Lambert180

    You forgot the I don't care what cards I have player.

  • edited December 2013
    Just forget about thinking just have fun and gamble :)
  • edited December 2013
    Thinking is bad, causes too much pressure on the brain.  I prefer the Level -1 Player - Don't worry about what you have just click that All In button and hope to give that person sat with AA a badbeat, then sit back and watch the chatbox as he sends lots of xxxxxx's to you.  Certainly brings enjoyment to the game of poker. :)
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