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Should i be worried here? Nl 20

edited June 2012 in The Poker Clinic
what are ur reads on villian? preflop i'm raising 4xbb minimum, can say he's not holding kk or aa preflop otherwise reraise over the top of you'r bet. but he's called 3x bb so must have some kind of hand unless he's been loose? can only see him calling with pp,ak,aq,aj preflop. half pot size bet on the flop isnt enuff to have me worried mybe has overcards? but as you have reraised and he just smooth calls you my alarm bells would be ringing,can only see him having a set here and a good fold imo

Comments

  • edited June 2012
    Oppo calls my raise pre, bets pot on the flop then calls my raise, then half pot turn!!

    Is there something fishy here? Slowplaying a bigger pair or set?

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    journeyboy Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £18.31
    xxxxBig blind  £0.20 £0.30 £29.30
     Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
       
    davon121 Fold     
    DEFOE007 Fold     
    TeamMoney Fold     
    davelufc Raise  £0.60 £0.90 £52.95
    journeyboy Call  £0.50 £1.40 £17.81
    xxxxCall  £0.40 £1.80 £28.90
    Flop
      
    • 3
    • 2
    • 10
       
    journeyboy Check     
    xxxxBet  £1.80 £3.60 £27.10
    davelufc Raise  £4.40 £8.00 £48.55
    journeyboy Fold     
    xxxxCall  £2.60 £10.60 £24.50
    Turn
      
    • J
       
    xxxxBet  £5.30 £15.90 £19.20
    davelufc ??
  • edited June 2012
    When he donk leads for pot I'd be putting him on something like A10, K10 etc, or maybe JJ and trying to take the pot down before before worse cards come out. Similar range or even flush draw when he calls. When he then leads again on the turn I'm really starting to worry he hass JJ or even J10 if he is quite loose (reads needed), but sheesh think have to go with it as his line is very weird readless.
  • edited June 2012
    think im flatting here and prey for no club
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    Oppo calls my raise pre, bets pot on the flop then calls my raise, then half pot turn!! Is there something fishy here? Slowplaying a bigger pair or set? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance journeyboy Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £18.31 chevy61 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £29.30   Your hole cards Q Q       davon121 Fold         DEFOE007 Fold         TeamMoney Fold         davelufc Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £52.95 journeyboy Call   £0.50 £1.40 £17.81 chevy61 Call   £0.40 £1.80 £28.90 Flop     3 2 10       journeyboy Check         chevy61 Bet   £1.80 £3.60 £27.10 davelufc Raise   £4.40 £8.00 £48.55 journeyboy Fold         chevy61 Call   £2.60 £10.60 £24.50 Turn     J       chevy61 Bet   £5.30 £15.90 £19.20 davelufc ??
    Posted by davelufc
    Looks lke a set to me, possibly j10? I flat and try to get to show down cheap as possible
  • edited June 2012
    I wouldn't have raised on the flop. You're only really hoping to get called by the Ten. I know it's going to hurt when a club comes on the turn and you're not sure where you are but in this situation when my opponent wants to take over the betting on a flop like this, I'm usually going to let him. A club only hits on the turn 10/47 times, so it's not going to happen too often. Call and see what he does on the turn. You'll keep in all his bluffs and underpairs, as well as that Ten.

    As played, I'm not too afraid of sets. If he had TT, 33 or 22 it doesn't make alot of sense for him to call your flop raise and then lead out on the turn. I'd be thinking that the only hand I've gone behind to is JT on the turn. I think you've given yourself a problem with your flop raise, really.

    If you call on the turn you're probably going to have to call it off on the river too, unless it comes something awful like the King of clubs, and that bet's probably going to be for his stack.... It's one of those player dependent things, I suppose. You might want to make this decision a shove or a fold rather than a call. I think it's a shove, but my head is feeling a bit foggy on this one and I'm finding it tough to come up with a definitive answer. Interesting to hear what other people have to say on it.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    I wouldn't have raised on the flop. You're only really hoping to get called by the Ten. I know it's going to hurt when a club comes on the turn and you're not sure where you are but in this situation when my opponent wants to take over the betting on a flop like this, I'm usually going to let him. A club only hits on the turn 10/47 times, so it's not going to happen too often. Call and see what he does on the turn. You'll keep in all his bluffs and underpairs, as well as that Ten. As played, I'm not too afraid of sets. If he had TT, 33 or 22 it doesn't make alot of sense for him to call your flop raise and then lead out on the turn. I'd be thinking that the only hand I've gone behind to is JT on the turn. I think you've given yourself a problem with your flop raise, really. If you call on the turn you're probably going to have to call it off on the river too, unless it comes something awful like the King of clubs, and that bet's probably going to be for his stack.... It's one of those player dependent things, I suppose. You might want to make this decision a shove or a fold rather than a call. I think it's a shove, but my head is feeling a bit foggy on this one and I'm finding it tough to come up with a definitive answer. Interesting to hear what other people have to say on it.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Think shoving is worst option, never getting called by worse.
    I do agree that sets are unlikly with the flat on flop.
    I would play it same (no reads) and call turn, call river with no scare cards.
  • edited June 2012
    Was thinking about this while donking myself out of a tournament stupidly before the bubble, and to be honest the only hands that make sense for him to have here are A10, K10 Q10, or J10 and of clubs, or JJ. These are only hands I can see someone on that can play. His line makes no sense for a set really, and either the turn improved him with J10 or JJ, or he is putting out fairly big blocker bet with that Q10-A10 of clubs hoping to stop a bigger bet with an overpair, and thinking his donk lead again will throw you, which it did.

    Think its definately a shove or fold situation on the turn (as good chance he does shove river), and really that needs some reads on the player. Personally think there is good chance you went behind, but he could be on one of those club draw hands with a paired 10 as well.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20 : Think shoving is worst option, never getting called by worse. I do agree that sets are unlikly with the flat on flop. I would play it same (no reads) and call turn, call river with no scare cards.
    Posted by freechips1
    I admit I'm uncharacteristically uncertain about this hand. The thinking behind shove or fold is that: A) If he has us beat on the turn, we plan to call off on a blank river anyway. B) If he has a flush draw, he might call here but might not bet the river if he misses. C) If the flush draw comes in on the river it's a great bluffing card for him and we could be pushed off the best hand.

    I think we can get called by worse. A pair and a flush draw can call us and players can call us with the bare flush draw. Admittedly it would be a bad call with a bare flush draw given the odds we'd be laying but there are plenty of bad players.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20 : I admit I'm uncharacteristically uncertain about this hand. The thinking behind shove or fold is that: A) If he has us beat on the turn, we plan to call off on a blank river anyway. B) If he has a flush draw, he might call here but might not bet the river if he misses. C) If the flush draw comes in on the river it's a great bluffing card for him and we could be pushed off the best hand. I think we can get called by worse. A pair and a flush draw can call us and players can call us with the bare flush draw. Admittedly it would be a bad call with a bare flush draw given the odds we'd be laying but there are plenty of bad players.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    he may only bet half pot again on river with j,10 (if river blanks) saving us moneys.
    Also if he has a 2 pair hand j,10 being obvious one, he may/should check back river if flush hits.
    I think its more likely he will half pot river as a bluff with missed draws than he is to call off a shove with a draw.
    without any reads i am ruling out JJ+.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20 : he may only bet half pot again on river with j,10 (if river blanks) saving us moneys. Also if he has a 2 pair hand j,10 being obvious one, he may/should check back river if flush hits. I think its more likely he will half pot river as a bluff with missed draws than he is to call off a shove with a draw. without any reads i am ruling out JJ+.
    Posted by freechips1
    I agree that JJ+ is highly unlikely.

    The weird lead on the turn makes it tough to predict this particular player. Generally though, with a £20 pot and £19 behind, I wouldn't expect someone to bluff for half the pot on the river. I just don't think it's an effective bluff size. It's the sort of bet that looks like it's trying to get value from one-pair hands but the reason people make bets that size is that people actually do call them with one-pair hands. That makes it an unappealing bet to make if you want those one-pair hands to fold. 

    As long as the shove is believable as a value bet - as a pot-size bet is - it's going to be the best option as a bluff.
  • edited June 2012
    Good shout by Borin and Kam. Thats what i did, Am i still good here?

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    journeyboy Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £18.31
    xxxxBig blind  £0.20 £0.30 £29.30
     Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
       
    davon121 Fold     
    DEFOE007 Fold     
    TeamMoney Fold     
    davelufc Raise  £0.60 £0.90 £52.95
    journeyboy Call  £0.50 £1.40 £17.81
    xxxxCall  £0.40 £1.80 £28.90
    Flop
      
    • 3
    • 2
    • 10
       
    journeyboy Check     
    xxxxBet  £1.80 £3.60 £27.10
    davelufc Raise  £4.40 £8.00 £48.55
    journeyboy Fold     
    xxxxCall  £2.60 £10.60 £24.50
    Turn
      
    • J
       
    xxxxBet  £5.30 £15.90 £19.20
    davelufc All-in  £48.55 £64.45 £0.00
    xxxx ???
  • edited June 2012
    If villan has half a clue you will never be called by worse, after all it is another 100bb you have turned your hand into a bluff.
  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Should i be worried here? Nl 20:
    If villan has half a clue you will never be called by worse, after all it is another 100bb you have turned your hand into a bluff.
    Posted by freechips1
    I do sort of agree. I think in this case the opponent's play isn't indicative of having half a clue. I dunno, I'd shove in this spot for the reasons I've mentioned. I can definitely see the arguments for calling down, though. The opponent's flop call then lead on the turn has got me totally confused. I can't see why you would make that bet with JT, a flush draw, a bluff or one-pair. It's offering someone great odds to draw to the flush if you have a made hand and it's putting you in a really difficult spot if you're on a draw and they come over the top. As a bluff, surely it could only ever get a fold from someone holding air...

    I'm struggling to make sense of the play, so either it's someone alot better than me doing something beyond my understanding or it's a player much worse than me (or at least someone who has played this hand badly).
  • edited June 2012
    This sort of hand is soooo sooo player depended. Please post reads and notes you have on the opponent to get accurate replies. 
  • edited June 2012
    Come on dave post the results. Not much point posting up to the turn then posting what you did, as we already gave what we thought his likely hands were to be, and thats not likely to change. hehe

    Either you are good and he makes a bad call with a 10x, a bad call with a flush draw, a marignally bad call with pair and flush draw, or a likely winning call with 2 pair or set. :)
  • edited June 2012
    Top replies as always, thanks all.

    Thought i might have played it  ok, but i`m such a fish lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    journeyboy Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £18.31
    xxxxBig blind  £0.20 £0.30 £29.30
     Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
       
    davon121 Fold     
    DEFOE007 Fold     
    TeamMoney Fold     
    davelufc Raise  £0.60 £0.90 £52.95
    journeyboy Call  £0.50 £1.40 £17.81
    xxxxCall  £0.40 £1.80 £28.90
    Flop
      
    • 3
    • 2
    • 10
       
    journeyboy Check     
    xxxxBet  £1.80 £3.60 £27.10
    davelufc Raise  £4.40 £8.00 £48.55
    journeyboy Fold     
    xxxxCall  £2.60 £10.60 £24.50
    Turn
      
    • J
       
    xxxxBet  £5.30 £15.90 £19.20
    davelufc All-in  £48.55 £64.45 £0.00
    xxxxAll-in  £19.20 £83.65 £0.00
    davelufc Unmatched bet  £24.05 £59.60 £24.05
    xxxxShow
    • 10
    • 5
       
    davelufc Show
    • Q
    • Q
       
    River
      
    • 7
       
    davelufc Win Pair of Queens £57.80  £81.85
  • edited June 2012
    Wow can only assume you only just sat down not to have noticed this guy was so spewwy. Said in my first post I'd have pegged as most likely on top pair trying to take it down quickly with his pot sized bet, but I just gave him way to much credit on the kicker. Would have been easy shove on turn if had seen this guy play for more than 5 minutes.
  • edited June 2012
    This game's easy, isn't it? Nice value.
  • edited June 2012
    lol at the 10 5 i would of played it the same way u did so didnt comment maybe flat the flop tho not raise for pot control
  • edited June 2012
    Flat flop, flat turn
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