what do we think of this play?

jams88

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxx	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£18.67
jams88	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.83
	Your hole cards	9 9
marcus191	Raise		£0.40	£0.55	£5.96
Rottiejohn	Call		£0.40	£0.95	£9.42
knotken	Fold
xxx	Call		£0.35	£1.30	£18.32
jams88	Call		£0.30	£1.60	£9.53
Flop
		3 6 2
xxx	Bet		£1.60	£3.20	£16.72
jams88	All-in		£9.53	£12.73	£0.00

jams88

reads
seen 5x open ak no cbet the c/c to the river with ace high
c/c 2 streets to large bets and pot bet lead river with backdoor house made from middle pair on flop

KAM99

What I hate about it is that you are only second to act shoving all in when the intial raiser or even the first caller could have you beat with 1010 etc. Making your shove based on the first persons pot sized bet and what you know of his game is not always a great idea with two more people to act, and definately not a shove in my book here. Even if they fold here, its not what i'd call a good idea generally this.

Andyl1986

I'd probably call and see what the original raiser does - what was the outcome?

rancid

what do u want a fold or a call

calls from 6x, 7's,8's - draws

folds from nothing better

feels yuk

just call

jams88

shove to take the pot down there and then. What turn cards am i going to like by calling?

rancid

oppo makes up sb then donks pot, the only question is wtf is oppo doing that with

plus u got players behind

do you feel that great w/9's to shove to take down pot where you are highly likely getting called by better


why do you feel the need to turn this hand into a bluff with little FE -

call is just better

KAM99

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play?:

shove to take the pot down there and then. What turn cards am i going to like by calling?
Posted by jams88

POint is you are shoving into 3 people, which is bad as one of them is the initial raiser and due to action you have no idea how strong a hand he has. Sure the first caller might not be that strong as he only called the first raise, but he could still be on a hand like 1010 etc, and opening raiser could be on AA for all you know right now.

Fact is with your shove here you would only be called by better, so its pretty high risk for the reward. Of course this is against good players. If you do have donks they might call ace high, or with overpairs or flush draw etc, but if looking to play a hand right in general this shove is pretty dangerous as a long term play against multiple players. If just villian then maybe, but 3 its very high risk.

jams88

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play?:

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play? : POint is you are shoving into 3 people, which is bad as one of them is the initial raiser and due to action you have no idea how strong a hand he has. Sure the first caller might not be that strong as he only called the first raise, but he could still be on a hand like 1010 etc, and opening raiser could be on AA for all you know right now. Fact is with your shove here you would only be called by better, so its pretty high risk for the reward. Of course this is against good players. If you do have donks they might call ace high, or with overpairs or flush draw etc, but if looking to play a hand right in general this shove is pretty dangerous as a long term play against multiple players. If just villian then maybe, but 3 its very high risk.
Posted by KAM99

I understand what your saying here then, but i hate calling here. if i see 2 "safe" cards which is unlikely im probably stacking off over 2 more streets if im against 1010 i still lose my money. If something nasty comes down im forced to fold and lose 20bbs then forced to fold. Or i flat and then orginal raiser may shove and same descion again. I would rather be the 1 shoving while i still have some FE and a strong possibility of having the best hand is this poor thinking? If its not a riase in my position i think it has to be a fold from my hand then?

KAM99

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play?:

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play? : I understand what your saying here then, but i hate calling here. if i see 2 "safe" cards which is unlikely im probably stacking off over 2 more streets if im against 1010 i still lose my money. If something nasty comes down im forced to fold and lose 20bbs then forced to fold. Or i flat and then orginal raiser may shove and same descion again. I would rather be the 1 shoving while i still have some FE and a strong possibility of having the best hand is this poor thinking? If its not a riase in my position i think it has to be a fold from my hand then?
Posted by jams88

The point is in this spot you only have fold equity if they don't have a hand better than yours, as we said you will only get called here by a better hand most times, and you got 3 people that may well have a better hand. At least if you call here and the opening raiser shoves you can still get off it. And if opening raiser and the first caller fold then at least you have postion on the guy in the small blind for the turn. Also, if he does have a poor hand you keep him in and he may pay you off some more on turn etc.

Just don't like trying to force a fairly medium PP past 3 players when I've no real idea what they are on, and certainly the opening raiser. Hey, if it worked on this occasion and you took the pot there great, but how many times will you do it where one of them calls you with better and you lose the lot instead? Making reraises or shoves vs one person is ok etc, but unless really got a big hand it is very high risk against 3 unknown hands.

BorinLoner

When you raise this flop the question should be; why didn't you raise pre-flop?

Your hand hasn't improved on this flop, so if you have the best hand now you must have also had the best hand pre-flop. The reason I would suggest that you wouldn't want to 3-bet with this hand pre-flop is that you wouldn't want to be 4-bet and then have to make a decision whether to call off your stack, hoping to be up against just two overcards and not an overpair.

The thing is that if you're up against an overpair it won't fold on this flop and if the pre-flop raiser has two overcards your shove is just going to force him to fold a hand that most likely has only six outs against us. So against that pre-flop raiser your shove means you stack off when you're behind and lose value when you're ahead. Both are bad.

Your call pre-flop was really to set-mine but the flop has given you another possibility. Unfortunately, your opponents' hands are very poorly defined and at this moment you have virtually no idea if you're ahead or not.. I think the best thing to do is to call and see what your opponents do. If the pre-flop raiser 3-bets it's most likely going to be a fold. You might face a tricky decision if the pre-flop raiser calls and then the Small Blind leads on the turn again. That would most likely make me fold even if the flush misses on the turn... Suffice it to say there are alot of possible outcomes and we can't ponder them all...

Basically, I think it's a call or a fold on the flop. folding is very tight but justifiable if any of your three opponents is particularly tight. Most of the time it's a spot to call and reassess.

rancid

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play?:

In Response to Re: what do we think of this play? : I understand what your saying here then, but i hate calling here. if i see 2 "safe" cards which is unlikely im probably stacking off over 2 more streets if im against 1010 i still lose my money. If something nasty comes down im forced to fold and lose 20bbs then forced to fold. Or i flat and then orginal raiser may shove and same descion again. I would rather be the 1 shoving while i still have some FE and a strong possibility of having the best hand is this poor thinking? If its not a riase in my position i think it has to be a fold from my hand then?
Posted by jams88

You don't have to go broke here, u can call and then fold to a shove behind
If you put the donk lead on A6/draws, then why bluff -

What hands do you have FE against ?
Like what hands do you want players behind to fold that beat you -


If you call, what hands flat behind - why are you so scared of turn card if you flat :S
If someone flats behind, what are you putting them on -

No reason to shove here unless players behind have worse and donk lead has 6x, draws and always calls
I very much doubt overcards call if you call, so turn is not a problem

grantorino

Fold equity isn't much use unless you make them fold a hand it's a mistake for them to fold

when you raise you rarely make better fold and the range you get called by crushes you. I call but I dont hate just folding when passive guy pots 4 way and you have two players behind including an utg raiser. 

Turn and river might be difficult to play, that doesn't mean you should turn your hand into a bluff on the flop

jams88

thanks to everyone who took time to explain this hand out to me so that i could wrap my head around the concepts think i have it now

if your intrested it went fold fold behind and then sb dwells and calls with qq flatted pre from sb ouch