Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA

jugglegeek

First of all in a vacuum this hand may look rediculous. "It's NL4 raise more pre!", "you'll get value from all kinds of one pair hands!" I can already here the remarks. But this table was a money factory. I've already made almost a buy-in and the table will call pretty much any bet if they decide that they are going to call, which happens quite often. Raising to 20p or 28p doesn't really improve my chances of getting to a flop heads up. It's going 3-way at least here no matter what I do. Now that that the flop comes as it does I start to think that I'll find better spots. With 3 other players in the hand I feel certain that there is at least a flush draw with a pair out there. Is there any justification for this play at all. I felt like the way things were going at this table there was going to be a better spot. Too tight?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.82
BB	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.45
	Your hole cards	A A
UTG	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.32
jugglegeek	Raise		£0.16	£0.26	£7.61
BTN	Fold
SB	Call		£0.14	£0.40	£2.68
BB	Call		£0.12	£0.52	£1.33
UTG	Call		£0.12	£0.64	£2.20
Flop
		J K Q
SB	Check
BB	Check
UTG	Check
jugglegeek	Check
Turn
		6
SB	Bet		£0.32	£0.96	£2.36
BB	Fold
UTG	Call		£0.32	£1.28	£1.88
jugglegeek	Fold
River
		Q
SB	Check
UTG	Bet		£0.96	£2.24	£0.92
SB	Fold
UTG	Muck
UTG	Win		£1.18		£2.10
UTG	Return		£0.96	£0.10	£3.06

I know we shouldn't be results orrientated but on the very next hand I flopped a set against the SB's TPTK and won his stack.

Curt360x27

your completely mad.

rancid

this is crazy talk, if you have a table where people are calling big pre raise and you have AA, why the hell raise small with the nutz !


btw u r mad for folding

Glenelg

I don't play cash BUT surely your initial raise had to be at least 30p?   I'm also c-betting the flop.  I'll be VERY interested in the (proper) analysis from the cash-playing fraternity!  Kudos for posting BTW.

EvilPingu

In Response to Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

First of all in a vacuum this hand may look rediculous. "It's NL4 raise more pre!", "you'll get value from all kinds of one pair hands!" I can already here the remarks. But this table was a money factory. I've already made almost a buy-in and the table will call pretty much any bet if they decide that they are going to call, which happens quite often. Raising to 20p or 28p doesn't really improve my chances of getting to a flop heads up. It's going 3-way at least here no matter what I do.
Posted by jugglegeek

Then that's even more reason to raise bigger. Let's take an extreme example - There's a player who will call 100% of the time, no matter what, even if you shove. So is the best play then to make a standard raise of 3bb + 1bb per limper with AA? Of course not.

If people are going to call you with ANYTHING, no matter what, then make them pay to call. If two people are definitely going to call you no matter what, then brilliant, put in a huge raise, they'll still call you. There's no problem with making any raise of 24p upwards, possibly more. 16p here is way too small at 4NL, especially given reads that these two villains are uberfish.

By saying "Raising to 20p or 28p doesn't improve your chances of getting to a flop heads up", that shows up a huge mistake in your thought process. We shouldn't be bothered about getting the pot heads up, we should be thinking purely about extracting value from fish, and quite frankly, if 2 people want to call me, fine. I've got the best starting hand in Hold'em and they're putting money in the pot with a worse hand. Brilliant, isn't that what we want them to do?

jugglegeek

Ah well. Mad then. :-( Looking back at this I think it's a mistake. I'm not going to have a problem getting stacks in post flop for value after making it 16p and getting 3 callers as I can just bet full pot and have them all in by the river. I've been doing well at NL4 since coming back (30BBs/100 so far, check out my diary in GPC) and this was at the very end of a big winning session. I've adjusted my game a little since comming back to try and keep pots small and aim to get most of the money in on the turn or river. This is a bit extreem though. Normal service resumed as of now.

grantorino

In Response to Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

First of all in a vacuum this hand may look rediculous. "It's NL4 raise more pre!", "you'll get value from all kinds of one pair hands!" I can already here the remarks. But this table was a money factory. I've already made almost a buy-in and the table will call pretty much any bet if they decide that they are going to call, which happens quite often. Raising to 20p or 28p doesn't really improve my chances of getting to a flop heads up. It's going 3-way at least here no matter what I do. Now that that the flop comes as it does I start to think that I'll find better spots. With 3 other players in the hand I feel certain that there is at least a flush draw with a pair out there. Is there any justification for this play at all. I felt like the way things were going at this table there was going to be a better spot. Too             I know we shouldn't be results orrientated but on the very next hand I flopped a set against the SB's TPTK and won his stack.
Posted by jugglegeek

1. You are correct this looks ridiculous, not just in a vacuum but after info you have given

2. Who cares that you made a buy in already? So what?

3. Table is a money factory, so make some money with big hands

4. As evil p points out if you get called anyway you should be raising bigger with the nuts not controlling the pot. If it goes multiway it's going to be profitable (often moreso IMO, but will be higher variance). The spr will be low and you can stack worse one pair hands easily. Also raising bigger pre gets value from all the junk in their ranges that folds on flop

5 who cares if you will find better spots? Is all your bankroll on the table? The question is whether this is a good spot

6 b/c flop on this table. Also folding turn against a guy with that stack is a mistake imo

7 you stacked sb next hand, again so what? Can you not stack him if you play this hand? 

Pipunch

24p minimum pre. 3/4 bet on flop min. 3/4 on turn. Shove river.

You could play it differently against some of the few decent regs at this level but against those who haven't got a clue you NEVER lay down aces at this level unless the board is uber wet, especially when you have the chance to improve to a straight.

gracie24

To put this in perspective look at the attached.

layer	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
sb	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.62
bb	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.58
	Your hole cards	A J
1	Fold
2	Fold
gracie24	Raise		£0.16	£0.22	£3.96
4	Fold
5	Fold
sb	Fold
bb	Raise		£0.48	£0.70	£3.10
gracie24	Call		£0.36	£1.06	£3.60
Flop
		K 2 2
bb	Check
gracie24	Bet		£1.06	£2.12	£2.54
bb	All-in		£3.10	£5.22	£0.00
gracie24	Call		£2.04	£7.26	£0.50
bb	Show	5 A
gracie24	Show	A J
Turn
		8
River
		7
gracie24	Win	Pair of 2s	£6.71		£7.21

I have notes which say Any two cards against so many players-excepting those on the forum-it is better notes the non-maniacs.

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

In Response to Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA : 1. You are correct this looks ridiculous, not just in a vacuum but after info you have given 2. Who cares that you made a buy in already? So what? 3. Table is a money factory, so make some money with big hands 4. As evil p points out if you get called anyway you should be raising bigger with the nuts not controlling the pot. If it goes multiway it's going to be profitable (often moreso IMO, but will be higher variance). The spr will be low and you can stack worse one pair hands easily. Also raising bigger pre gets value from all the junk in their ranges that folds on flop 5 who cares if you will find better spots? Is all your bankroll on the table? The question is whether this is a good spot 6 b/c flop on this table. Also folding turn against a guy with that stack is a mistake imo 7 you stacked sb next hand, again so what? Can you not stack him if you play this hand? 
Posted by grantorino

Someones angry in the mornings!

Did you get out of the bed the wrong side?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

In Response to Re: Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA : Someones angry in the mornings! Did you get out of the bed the wrong side?
Posted by donkeyplop

I am always angry:)

Read back over my post and the tone is certainly more aggressive than I intended, so apologies to jugglegeek if any offence caused. I would have worded it differently if this was a newbie, but op has posted some quite detailed posts on stuff like 3 bet ranges etc, and I really think he knows himself that the fact he won a stack at the table earlier is irrelevant and also that he shouldn't wait for better spots et

AMYBR

Only read OP.

You know exactly why your folding here so in my book its fine.

This is why I havent been posting much lately, seems like everyone knows the answers to the questions they ask.  But like most people who know the answers to their questions - they are just looking for reassurance.

If you have a solid reason for making any action, its correct, outcome regardless.  If we use all the information at hand to make what we believe is the right decision, we need to be confident in that.  Because anyone else we ask after the fact wont have the situational info that we do.  Also we pretty much know when we've made a mistake.

jugglegeek

Don't worry GT. You didn't offend me. I posted this hand really to ask this question:

Why is there this accepted notion that vs fish there should be a big rush to get the money in early in the hand? 5x raises by regs at NL4 are totally standard and a very effective tell that it's a tight range and they are likely to play fit or fold poker post flop. Against 4 other random hands pre flop my aces are 55% favorite, on the flop vs 4 random hands I'm 60% favorite. On the next hand with a set vs top pair heads up my opponent is practically drawing dead on the flop barring a runner-runner situation. If, as experienced poker players (relative to NL4 newbies at least) our edge is in post-flop hand reading and proper bet sizing, why the rush to get more money in pre-flop when luck is going to be more of a factor?

KAM99

In Response to Re: Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

Don't worry GT. You didn't offend me. I posted this hand really to ask this question: Why is there this accepted notion that vs fish there should be a big rush to get the money in early in the hand? 5x raises by regs at NL4 are totally standard and a very effective tell that it's a tight range and they are likely to play fit or fold poker post flop. Against 4 other random hands pre flop my aces are 55% favorite, on the flop vs 4 random hands I'm 60% favorite. On the next hand with a set vs top pair heads up my opponent is practically drawing dead on the flop barring a runner-runner situation. If, as experienced poker players (relative to NL4 newbies at least) our edge is in post-flop hand reading and proper bet sizing, why the rush to get more money in pre-flop when luck is going to be more of a factor?
Posted by jugglegeek

If you know the above to be the case then you should always get your money in. Poker is about long term results, so even if you got it in and lost this time in the long run if you get your money in as 60% favourite you will be winning long term. Poker is not about one hand. Not to mention if you show to be only willing to get your money in when you got a total monster anyone that is watching at all will soon stop calling your shoves etc.

Ok, not that many watching that closely at 4nl, but just making a point. I'm also not saying on a dangerous board you can't dump AA either, and this board is dangerous. And could see dumping it on the river maybe as his check flop, lead turn could quite easy be with a queen. I definately wouldn't mind checking at some point on this board, either flop or turn for pot control, but not sure I'd give it up instantly assuming someone had better without very good reads on villians.

Pipunch

In Response to Re: Acceptable play or am I going completely mad? fold AA:

Don't worry GT. You didn't offend me. I posted this hand really to ask this question: Why is there this accepted notion that vs fish there should be a big rush to get the money in early in the hand? 5x raises by regs at NL4 are totally standard and a very effective tell that it's a tight range and they are likely to play fit or fold poker post flop. Against 4 other random hands pre flop my aces are 55% favorite, on the flop vs 4 random hands I'm 60% favorite. On the next hand with a set vs top pair heads up my opponent is practically drawing dead on the flop barring a runner-runner situation. If, as experienced poker players (relative to NL4 newbies at least) our edge is in post-flop hand reading and proper bet sizing, why the rush to get more money in pre-flop when luck is going to be more of a factor?
Posted by jugglegeek

The reason this is the notion is because it works.

You're worried about tells and all sorts of things that don't matter. Adapt your play to your situation, and if you're on a table full of fish who aren't noticing anything you do (which is 95% of people at this level on this site) then why be bothered about all that. Wait for big hands, value bet relentlessly and use position.

The biggest winners on here at NL4 are those that do just that.