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Pocket Queens

kingspoofkingspoof
edited June 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Sitting with 50 pound in a (0.25/0.50) blinds 6 handed . you raise under the gun in cash to 1.50  with qq goes all the way around to sb who makes it 5.00 to play. 
I flat call flop 10 7 2 (2 spades) he cb 8 .i call i feel if i raise i am pot commited ?cant raise fold ?  turn kh he bets out  again i call river blank he pushes i call he has AA.


 when should i have raised preflop, on the flop ?is there any point in the hand i can raise fold qq .

AA or kk i am a 4.5/1 underdog ak 6/5 fav . 
tricky hand when no over cards on flop ..


 
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Comments

  • KAM99KAM99
    edited June 2012
    Case for 4betting him preflop as normally you'd not be unhappy getting QQ in preflop. As played though could have raise flop, but hard to get away from if he goes over it, which he would. As played on the turn, maybe, just maybe you can get off it here depending on how easy he bet out with the king on the board.

    Mostly i guess it would depend of if you had some idea of his 3bet range. Either way not easy hand to get off in circumstances, and just one of those things. As say, maybe you get off it on the turn depending on how easy and how much he was happy to bet when a king appears.. Otherwise oh well NH move on.
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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu
    edited June 2012
    Unless you're against a total nit or you have a super tight image which means you'll only get 5bet by worse, I'd 4bet pre to £12, call a 5bet shove, and be happy about it.
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  • kingspoofkingspoof
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    Case for 4betting him preflop as normally you'd not be unhappy getting QQ in preflop. As played though could have raise flop, but hard to get away from if he goes over it, which he would. As played on the turn, maybe, just maybe you can get off it here depending on how easy he bet out with the king on the board. Mostly i guess it would depend of if you had some idea of his 3bet range. Either way not easy hand to get off in circumstances, and just one of those things. As say, maybe you get off it on the turn depending on how easy and how much he was happy to bet when a king appears.. Otherwise oh well NH move on.
    Posted by KAM99
    When i am sitting in cash never happy getting qq in preflop so when i 4 bet to say 12 and he shoves can i fold at these levels people will push alot of pocket pairs back at you and ak aq for sure sometimes aj.so can i 4 bet fold ?
    I been in spots having 400 on the tables getting 3 bet preflop what do you do then never want to play a pot of 400 with qq .so what do guys at a higher level do ? Do they call no set no bet ? I dont mind in tournament ill go broke people have to bluff to get chips cash different kettle of fish..
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  • TWRAMYEPTWRAMYEP
    edited June 2012
    no shame in folding the turn.
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  • Curt360x27Curt360x27
    edited June 2012

    Remember when your sat with 800bb, your effective stack is only going to be 100bb - 300bb in a standard game.

    If your NEVER happy about getting QQ in pre you need to re-asses your game imo. Your gonna be missing tonnes of value in the long run, and if good players pick up on this your going to get seriously exploited.  

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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens : When i am sitting in cash never happy getting qq in preflop so when i 4 bet to say 12 and he shoves can i fold at these levels people will push alot of pocket pairs back at you and ak aq for sure sometimes aj.so can i 4 bet fold ? I been in spots having 400 on the tables getting 3 bet preflop what do you do then never want to play a pot of 400 with qq .so what do guys at a higher level do ? Do they call no set no bet ? I dont mind in tournament ill go broke people have to bluff to get chips cash different kettle of fish..
    Posted by kingspoof
    Ok, I get what you are saying. But what you are saying is you don't want to get the 3rd best starting hand all in preflop, and these days in cash that is often going to be a mistake. However, obviously this can be case dependant if you know you are up against a real nit, but thats the only type of player I'd consider not being happy to get it all in preflop with.

    As for if you can fold a 4bet. Sure you can, though its not something I'd do often, but maybe against a real nit that I know has a hyper tight 5bet shoving range. But I'd need a really good knowledge they could be hyper nitty and only be shoving QQ+ to every consider a fold, as like I said we are folding the 3rd best preflop hand if we do.
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  • kingspoofkingspoof
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens : Ok, I get what you are saying. But what you are saying is you don't want to get the 3rd best starting hand all in preflop, and these days in cash that is often going to be a mistake. However, obviously this can be case dependant if you know you are up against a real nit, but thats the only type of player I'd consider not being happy to get it all in preflop with. As for if you can fold a 4bet. Sure you can, though its not something I'd do often, but maybe against a real nit that I know has a hyper tight 5bet shoving range. But I'd need a really good knowledge they could be hyper nitty and only be shoving QQ+ to every consider a fold, as like I said we are folding the 3rd best preflop hand if we do.
    Posted by KAM99

    I never been atight player I gamble abit if ill take a spin for 50 no bothers its when you have alot of money on the table .the question i was asking is when the best time to raise and fold if i have to with the qq ? preflop 4 bet fold to 5 bet? hard to reraise on dry flop i nearly be pot committed if he pushs and every body play back at you preflop with ak aq jj kk aa if you know what i mean..I know its the third best starting hand but if your play 1/2 blinds and you have 400 how do u approach qq dont want to play apot for 400 with qq if someone playing with me i am in trouble. he has either aa kk hes a 4.5/1 fav or he has ak and i am a 5/6 fav.. Thanks for all your opinions .
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  • KAM99KAM99
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens : I never been atight player I gamble abit if ill take a spin for 50 no bothers its when you have alot of money on the table .the question i was asking is when the best time to raise and fold if i have to with the qq ? preflop 4 bet fold to 5 bet? hard to reraise on dry flop i nearly be pot committed if he pushs and every body play back at you preflop with ak aq jj kk aa if you know what i mean..I know its the third best starting hand but if your play 1/2 blinds and you have 400 how do u approach qq dont want to play apot for 400 with qq if someone playing with me i am in trouble. he has either aa kk hes a 4.5/1 fav or he has ak and i am a 5/6 fav.. Thanks for all your opinions .
    Posted by kingspoof
    Sorry, advise i gave was based on your first post being 100bb deep, rather than 200bb like you're saying here if on 200nl table with $400.
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  • kingspoofkingspoof
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens : Sorry, advise i gave was based on your first post being 100bb deep, rather than 200bb like you're saying here if on 200nl table with $400.
    Posted by KAM99
    The main question i have in both spots is when is the best time in the hand to reraise and fold if i have to preflop flop ? if you know what i mean. thanks for advise .
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  • Curt360x27Curt360x27
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens:
    In Response to Re: Pocket Queens : I never been atight player I gamble abit if ill take a spin for 50 no bothers its when you have alot of money on the table .the question i was asking is when the best time to raise and fold if i have to with the qq ? preflop 4 bet fold to 5 bet? hard to reraise on dry flop i nearly be pot committed if he pushs and every body play back at you preflop with ak aq jj kk aa if you know what i mean..I know its the third best starting hand but if your play 1/2 blinds and you have 400 how do u approach qq dont want to play apot for 400 with qq if someone playing with me i am in trouble. he has either aa kk hes a 4.5/1 fav or he has ak and i am a 5/6 fav.. Thanks for all your opinions .
    Posted by kingspoof
    If your happy getting it in 200bb deep with QQ at 50nl but not at 200nl then you shouldn't be playing 200nl. The fact that your playing with more money should not influence your decision!!!
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  • kingspoofkingspoof
    edited June 2012
    Missing the point. when the best time to raise on the flop or preflop and be able to fold if you think he not bluffing like i got 3 bet from small blind had a feeling he had a strong but not dumping qq preflop should i 4 bet now and fold if he plays back at me ?
    should i smooth call 3 bet and when he bets on dry flop reraise then if he plays back at me fold if i think i am beat? 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited June 2012
    It's all read dependent. Would he never play back at you on this flop with AK thinking you haven't connected and are just c-betting? Or play back with JJ?

    If he's got AA/KK then it's just unlucky, I can't see you ever going THAT far wrong getting 100BB in pre with QQ against most players. Do you have any reads on the player?

    One thing I'd say (as others have) 100BB, or 200BB or whatever, is the same on 4NL as it it at 1000NL. Obviously the player standard aint gonna be the same but the depth of the stack is the same and the monetary value is irrelevant assuming you're bankrolled to play.

    There are plenty of people on the site who play higher stakes where them losing 2 BIs (£200 @ 100NL) would give them no different a feeling than me losing 2 BIs (£20 @ 10NL).
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited June 2012
    P.S.

    Your question seems to be, where can I raise and then find out I'm behind and fold?

    Just because on this one occasion he has AA, it doesn't mean you should always fold in this spot. Sometimes you can't fold and you lose.... that's coolers for you :)
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