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position???
I was just wondering if somebody could explain the whole position thing??
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I asked same question in strategy and got some great replies look it up
"Position" is being in a hand where you act AFTER all or most of the other Players.
So the LATER Position you have, the stronger you can play, & the weaker the hands you can play. You can Raise up with NO HAND on the Button in many cases. Or it if's checked to you on a random Flop, you can steal the Pot there & then simply by Betting.
I'm afraid Position is a lost art, as so few Players grasp it's importance these days.
As a general Rule, anyone who does not understand Position will be a long-term losing player. I don't know many if any, Profitable Players, who don't understand Position.
After you have grasped "POSITION", then move onto "the gap concept", another lost art, & another pre-requisite to not losing money.
To be even half-competent at Poker, an understanding of POSITION & GAP is a pre-requisite.
Still learning position and it really is helping but what is gap? never heard of it
You go on about enough during the open!!!!
It's just a shame that it isn't listened too enough.
For instance, I have just raised 5 x bb with ace 9. I was called by j 10. The caller did not apply this theory or his calling range must be very wide.
Someone just raised the pot 3 x bb. This time I fold ace 9.
Is that right?
If I was you I would invest in the book `Harrington on holdem` and consider it an investment. It explains all about position and gap concept etc and much more.
FWIW, position is SO important that if I was going to teach a complete noob how to play poker, I would teach them that a full house beats a flush and then teach them about position
Basically the Gap Principal is if you are looking to enter a hand where there has already been a raise, then you need a stronger hand in that position than you would if it was unraised.
As an example say on a 10 seat table. you are seated in mid position and have pocket 8's. If the pot is folded round to you, then you may consider your pocket 8's good enough to make a bet. However if say the person under the gun had already made a raise before the action had got to you then under the Gap principal, you need a better hand than your pocket 8's just to make the call.
Ideally the hands you would consider calling with, would be those hands that you are prepared to open with in early position. So if in early position you would only open a pot with AA, KK, QQ, AK os and AQ suited, then these are the hands you would need to play in mid position once the pot had been opened.
Thats the general concept behind it although as with every type of poker question, it does depend on the situation.
Aski
Aha I see whilst I was typing my novellete Hale72 cheated and made a short post :-P
Very unlike me,
I was in the middle of a DYM and the ace 9 j 10 hand happened,
It was a way of describing it easier.
No, its not really who you are playing. more of what cards would they raise with and if your are weaker, throw them away.
PS whats a noob
Imagine you're going on 100 mile car journey. You think it will take 2 hours.
Imagine this 100 miles is one orbit of the poker table.
In your car, at the start (UTG) you think it will take 2 hours, but there could be roadworks, a flat tyre, you might stop for lunch, etc. etc. because of unforseen events, you can not be sure how the journey will actually pan out. So at the table, it's the same, lots of people to act after you, there could be betting, 3-betting, pushes, all sorts. You need a strong hand to play from this position.
However, the closer to your destination (the closer to the button you are) the clearer idea you have of how long the journey will take (the clearer your hand strength will be), so if 5 people fold before you, you know there are only a few people to act, so suddenly those tricky nines or KTo might not be as bad as worrysome as they look.
Right on the button and you're virtually at your destination - if everyone has folded, then you're way ahead of schedule - you can afford to stop for a coffee, or read a newspaper, the poker equivalent being raising up with 47o. Even if you get called, you have position in every subsequent round of betting - so every street you get to see what the other players do first! A tremendous advantage!
With position, if the other person bets, you can fold to get away cheaply, float (call, the flop with the intent to raise on the turn), or re-raise if you've hit that raggy looking board.
If they check, you can raise (bluff or not), or check, in which case you get a free card.
All yummy options to put pressure on the out-of-position player.
In Response to Re: position???:
Let's say you're in early position with pocket tens.
A nice raise should get rid of any lurking QTo, A9, 89s hands that could lead to trouble.
Now you're in late position with pocket tens.
Some raises to 4BB and gets two callers.
Hmm, now those tens don't look so good...
What have all those people got? A bigger pocket pair? AK?
If any picture card comes on the flop it looks like you'll be behind...
It's pretty obvious in shortstack poker - you want to get your chips in early (be the raiser) rather than calling.
If you push all-in with AJ then it's hard for people to call and if they do, you're not in too bad shape...
You'll have 2 overcards to most pocket pairs, you have 5 chances to hit an A against QQ, KK, 5 chances to hit a J against AK, AQ. Then there's always the chance everyone will fold, so you get 1.5BB for free!
So if the push gets folded 30% of the time, 10% of the time you get called by a better hand (AQ,AK,AA,QQ,KK) (of which 25% of the time you will win), 20% gets called by an underpair (45% of which you win), 20% gets called by a weaker Ace (70% of which you will win) and 20% you get called by 2 any two cards (65% of the time you will win)
You will win 1.5BB 30% of the time double-through 38.5% of the time, bust out 31.5% of the time.
=68.5% gaining chips, 31.5% losing chips.
Now you're the caller.
Is pockets 6s good? You're 28% against an overpair, 52% against overcards and 70% against 1 overcard.
Can you call?
A7? You're around 30% against the bigger aces and pocket 8s or better. Can you call?
So take it back to the person pushing - you don't need AJ to push, if you think medium aces and small pairs will fold, you can push with anything. However, your push will have more success (in getting to people to fold) if there are less people to act after you?
And what is it called when you act late in the hand with few people to act?
POSITION!
Sorry for the long post, even felt a little drowsy when I re-read it myself
*All %s have been rounded to make it easier for everyone!
What stakes / entry fees would you be looking to play to properly practice these methods.
You should play at a level your financially comfortable with and one you get most success at.
I am possibly the worst at bankroll management so couldn't really say, if you play proper poker though, using maths and position, you should have success at any level you can afford, but you will always get horrible plays on any table people sometimes disregard low stakes games and move all in with any two, but giving yourself the mathematical edge will pay over time.
Even the pro's can have moments of madness and play like donks because of so called "extrasensory preception" where they have a gut instinct!
What a great thread!
All the answers are there. Absorb the lessons in this Thread, & you HAVE to be a better player.
GAP simplified - you need a BIGGER hand to Call with than you do to Raise with. The quoted example of 8-8 was a perfect example.
And if you implement GAP, then you've overcome that most expensive & common fault of inexperienced players. Calling is bad, Raising OR folding is good.
I have learned so much but it will take a while to sink in and learn.
Tikay,
I keep referring back to these posts as a sort of library and I fear they will eventually disappear into page 500.
Do you think these posts can be copied onto the main screen of forum.
Headline it position / Gap play and when you refer to it on tv tell people to go there.
Sorry aint good with words lol hope you get what i mean
The thread started because the OP, MickGreen, aaked me the question in the Chatbox, whilst I was playing. It's clearly totally imposible to answer a question like that in a chat-box, whilst trying to play, so I sked him to start a Thread.
And the result is that lots of players gave valuable insights into Position. And everybody gave great, helpful advice, in a way we can all take on board.
Position is a "Basic", as is "GAP", & many, many, others.
Perhaps we should start more Threads in this Board about basics.
That would be good Tikay just dont want these threads disappearing, I will refresh these ones every now and again.
I am understanding the principals a bit more and practising my range which is narrower than I ever thought and find my self folding a lot more.
One funny thing though a few times A game has went fold fold fold I have say A 9 so i consider putting in a raise and by the time I have thought about it the timer has run out lol
Hence with your Ace Nine, as soon as you see the cards, you say to yourself ok if this is folded round to me I'm going to raise, or if its raised I'm going to fold.
There are many times when Ive seen my hand and bee ready to put in a raise, only to see someone force action before me, and I end up gritting my teeth and folding
That way you use your 15 seconds thinking time, just to finalise your thoughts, and hopefully that will stop you being timed out.
Aski