HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD

The_Don90

Ok prior to HU this guy was extremely passive running quite good aswell, he has most of the heads in the game and 4 handed i managed to pick chips up to equal him in stack other than that hes been crushing. Since HU tho hes been pretty aggro on the button, but calling every hand OOP that ive raised. Seen showdowns with him holding literally ATC. As a result i feel i have a strong edge. Then this hand crops up.

Now normally i wouldn't post this hand, would say standard do this and move on, but v this kind of opponent HU i feel i have a leak against, as a result i've posted this to discuss.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		600.00	600.00	36453.78
The_Don90	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	49746.22
	Your hole cards	2 A
x	Raise		1800.00	3600.00	34653.78
The_Don90	Raise		3600.00	7200.00	46146.22
x	Call		2400.00	9600.00	32253.78
Flop
		8 8 Q
The_Don90	Bet		4800.00	14400.00	41346.22
x	Raise		9600.00	24000.00	22653.78
The_Don90	????

Lambert180

With your chip lead, if you really have an edge and he's been passive the whole time then fold.

With the pot size/his stack size you're gonna have virtutally zero FE if you jam and that's you're only real option other than folding (IMO). Because you have no FE, then it's just a case of you hitting, and if he has 8x, Qx or any PP, then you aint got the right odds and no need to take a marginal race if you've got a big edge.

LOL_RAISE

think id just flat pre

Lambert180

Yeah didn't even think to discuss pre-flop play. I definitely flat pre.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

think id just flat pre
Posted by LOL_RAISE

ah i forgot to mention my reasoning for the 3bet pre. appoligies for that. Previously he'd been folding to around 80% of my 3bets. When hes called he has been wide so felt even if called im going to have the best hand alot. Aswel as hes folding to about 90% of cbets. So im confident of taking it down pre or with one bet on the flop. Obviously if he 4bets im folding.


Sorry i should have mentioned all this in the OP i thought i had.



Lambert you say you fold can i ask why? surley we have to include worse draws into his range. Obv with pairs and wierd bluffs.

Lambert180

Yes you can include them, but many of them are gonna be Ax hands and yuo're behind to any Ax hand. Ok you have the FD but 65% of the time you aint gonna hit that. Like I said, the reason I say it is because you have 0 FE. So when you know you're getting called 100% of the time, your chances against his range are just not that favourable.

For one, you've said he is extremely passive, when a really passive player suddenly min-raises you for the first time, it's unlikely to be complete air.

If you are a favourite v his range, I'd say it's only gonna be a very marginal favourite and if like you say that you have a decent edge over him, I'd let go here knowing that if you don't fold all the chips are going in and you can find better spots, especially against a weak passive player that folds too much HU. Just grind him down slowly.

Also, your flatting reason doesn't make much sense, if he's folding to 80% of 3bets, he can't be calling that wide, and if he's calling wide then why is he folding to 80% of 3bets?

The problem with 3betting a hand like A2 HU is that you're only a slight favourite against ATC (apart from 2x which I doubt he calls with), you're crushed by all Ax hands and all PPs. You're also OOP, and I'd recommend playing as many hands as possible IP when HU. So you're just bloating a pot OOP with a fairly weak hand even if it is HU.

Padzz77

If you fold now, then the stack sizes are:

You = 41346

Him = 46654

So You = 41346/88800, or approx 47%

41.5%

If you flat call, and fold on turn then you have 36546/88000 = 41.5%.

At most, a flat call would cost you 4BB.  At current levels, you would have apprx 34 BB if you fold now, or approx 30 BB if you fold turn.

For me, this is a flat call, and a check on the turn (if you miss).  If he bets again, then you will have a decision to make, but I dont think you will have done that much damage if you then fold having given him a few extra chips.

I wouldnt say pot odds should be the most significant factor (by any means).

But, for the record, you are being offered 24000/4800 = 5 to 1.

You will hit a club on the turn about one time in 5.

It is not inevitable that your opponent will bet turn.  So you might also get to see the river for a price of just 4800.  You might even get to showdown for nothing extra,

Given that you also have 3 Aces which might win you the hand, I think it is premature to fold. 

What did you do?

The_Don90

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

If you fold now, then the stack sizes are: You = 41346 Him = 46654 So You = 41346/88800, or approx 47% 41.5% If you flat call, and fold on turn then you have 36546/88000 = 41.5%. At most, a flat call would cost you 4BB.  At current levels, you would have apprx 34 BB if you fold now, or approx 30 BB if you fold turn. For me, this is a flat call, and a check on the turn (if you miss).  If he bets again, then you will have a decision to make, but I dont think you will have done that much damage if you then fold having given him a few extra chips. I wouldnt say pot odds should be the most significant factor (by any means). But, for the record, you are being offered 24000/4800 = 5 to 1. You will hit a club on the turn about one time in 5. It is not inevitable that your opponent will bet turn.  So you might also get to see the river for a price of just 4800.  You might even get to showdown for nothing extra, Given that you also have 3 Aces which might win you the hand, I think it is premature to fold.  What did you do?
Posted by Padzz77

As requested ill show the rest of this hand.

As stated i posted this because i felt id done wrong considering so here it is.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		600.00	600.00	36453.78
The_Don90	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	49746.22
	Your hole cards	2 A
x	Raise		1800.00	3600.00	34653.78
The_Don90	Raise		3600.00	7200.00	46146.22
x	Call		2400.00	9600.00	32253.78
Flop
		8 8 Q
The_Don90	Bet		4800.00	14400.00	41346.22
x	Raise		9600.00	24000.00	22653.78
The_Don90	All-in		41346.22	65346.22	0.00
x	All-in		22653.78	88000.00	0.00
The_Don90	Unmatched bet		13892.44	74107.56	13892.44
x	Show	3 J
The_Don90	Show	2 A
Turn
		6
River
		8
The_Don90	Win	Three 8s	74107.56		88000.00

Padzz77

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD : As requested ill show the rest of this hand. 
Posted by The_Don90

Congrats on the win, and thanks for posting the remainder.

I know it's not the point of the thread, but I always like to know how the story ended.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD : Congrats on the win, and thanks for posting the remainder. I know it's not the point of the thread, but I always like to know how the story ended.
Posted by Padzz77

Thanks mate, no worries.

If im honest i felt at first i played it well but when looking over some Hand Historys it cropped up and i felt it was pretty bad. So thought id post it.

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD : ah i forgot to mention my reasoning for the 3bet pre. appoligies for that. Previously he'd been folding to around 80% of my 3bets.

When hes called he has been wide so felt even if called im going to have the best hand alot. Posted by The_Don90

How long have you guys been playing HU to know these stats are anywhere near accurate?! fair enough you could say he has raised the button and folded alot to 3bets. In which case you should be 3b junk as he will be folding. And flatting with medium/ strong hands like this to play Vs his wide opening range.

Also the 2nd comment just doesnt make sense, how can he fold to 3b 80% of the time, yet the 20% of the time he calls have a wide range?? he has the top 20% of hands which crush your A2.

But well done on the win i also don't mind getting it in as played, you have 12+ outs most of the time he calls and a fair amount of FE to the shove.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD:

In Response to Re: HU at end of mtt v Loose passive oppo facing raise with NFD : How long have you guys been playing HU to know these stats are anywhere near accurate?! fair enough you could say he has raised the button and folded alot to 3bets. In which case you should be 3b junk as he will be folding. And flatting with medium/ strong hands like this to play Vs his wide opening range. Also the 2nd comment just doesnt make sense, how can he fold to 3b 80% of the time, yet the 20% of the time he calls have a wide range?? he has the top 20% of hands which crush your A2. But well done on the win i also don't mind getting it in as played, you have 12+ outs most of the time he calls and a fair amount of FE to the shove.
Posted by pr1nnyraid

about 2.5 blind levels so 12 mins or so. Much longer than i normally end up in a heads up game for. But given the nature of this particular opponent i was playing slightly tighter than normal. I did do a few 3bets, and he folded to around 80% of these. However when calling previous to this hand it had been an ATS range that had got to showdown strangely. This was my first "lightish" 3bet however.

He had opened 100% of buttons so folding to 80% of my 3bets and calling with all suited was sort of my impression by this stage.