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Should I just open shove here?

SlykllistSlykllist
edited July 2012 in The Poker Clinic

Folded to me on button, in exactly the same spot the previous orbit, the SB had re-shoved my min button raise.  The BB had also shown he was happy to call out of BB and then fold to a c-bet.

I 3x with the intention of getting them in to a re-shove and jamming pretty much any flop.

The question is, given stack sizes, should I just be open shoving here?  Also, give the line taken and reads is the call OK with AQo?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
VillianSmall blind  300.00 300.00 19312.50
banteca Big blind  600.00 900.00 15472.50
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • A
   
Jimbob30 Fold     
nikkik34 Fold     
Gullyman Fold     
Slykllist Raise  1800.00 2700.00 8175.00
Villian All-in  19312.50 22012.50 0.00
banteca Fold     
Slykllist All-in  8175.00 30187.50 0.00
VillianUnmatched bet  9637.50 20550.00 9637.50
Villian Show
  • 3
  • 10
   
Slykllist Show
  • Q
  • A
   
Flop
  
  • 5
  • K
  • 8
   
Turn
  
  • 8
   
River
  
  • 3
   
VillianWin Flush to the King 20550.00  30187.50
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Comments

  • GlenelgGlenelg
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Should I just open shove here?:
    Folded to me on button, in exactly the same spot the previous orbit, the SB had re-shoved my min button raise.  
    Posted by Slykllist
    Which tourney? BH? How many left? Near bubble? Don't matter really..given the history & your stack, I'm prob open shoving here.   It looks like villain is gonna call with dross anyway so ce la vie I'm afraid! Hope you were sober? ;-)
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited July 2012
    clear results orientated post......

    would you be asking the same question if you won? - probably not.

    do you want to open jam and make the 10 3 guy fold when he is going to jam vs an open? absolutely not.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2012
    To be honest, I prefer to raise (not 3x tho) and call off a shove. What you want is for people to make mistakes, if you raise to say 1300, they have plenty of chances to make mistakes by either flat calling (even when your stack size says you're never folding post-flop) or shove (when you're never folding).

    If you shove, it makes it alot easier for them to make the correct play and fold.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    clear results orientated post...... would you be asking the same question if you won? - probably not. do you want to open jam and make the 10 3 guy fold when he is going to jam vs an open? absolutely not.
    Posted by NColley
    Lol don't beat about the bush.

    To be fair, if he shoved and got called and won, does that make it correct?

    He's obviously trying to discuss what's the best way to get all the chips in, raise/call it off or just open shove - result is irrelevant.
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  • Curt360x27Curt360x27
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Should I just open shove here?:
    Folded to me on button, in exactly the same spot the previous orbit, the SB had re-shoved my min button raise.  The BB had also shown he was happy to call out of BB and then fold to a c-bet. I 3x with the intention of getting them in to a re-shove and jamming pretty much any flop. The question is, given stack sizes, should I just be open shoving here?  Also, give the line taken and reads is the call OK with AQo? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Villian Small blind   300.00 300.00 19312.50 banteca Big blind   600.00 900.00 15472.50   Your hole cards Q A       Jimbob30 Fold         nikkik34 Fold         Gullyman Fold         Slykllist Raise   1800.00 2700.00 8175.00 Villian  All-in   19312.50 22012.50 0.00 banteca Fold         Slykllist All-in   8175.00 30187.50 0.00 Villian Unmatched bet   9637.50 20550.00 9637.50 Villian  Show 3 10       Slykllist Show Q A       Flop     5 K 8       Turn     8       River     3       Villian Win Flush to the King 20550.00   30187.50
    Posted by Slykllist
    You already know the answer. You played the hand well just got ul.

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  • Curt360x27Curt360x27
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Should I just open shove here? : Which tourney? BH? How many left? Near bubble? Don't matter really..given the history & your stack, I'm prob open shoving here.   It looks like villain is gonna call with dross anyway so ce la vie I'm afraid! Hope you were sober? ;-)
    Posted by Glenelg
    Given these factors we should play the hand exactly how it was played.
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  • 12671267
    edited July 2012
    never open shove here,

    played fine -  run better
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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    To be honest, I prefer to raise (not 3x tho) and call off a shove. What you want is for people to make mistakes, if you raise to say 1300, they have plenty of chances to make mistakes by either flat calling (even when your stack size says you're never folding post-flop) or shove (when you're never folding). If you shove, it makes it alot easier for them to make the correct play and fold.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Paul, 3x is larger than I would usually bet here, I opted for that size as I wanted to give the SB something chunky enough to try to steal whilst appearing to still leave myself some fold equity (I've played the villian many times before and he knows what he's doing).

    The reason for asking the question was that after getting exactly what I wanted I began to wonder if I'd over valued my hand at the end of the day I only had A high.

    I've essentially said that I'm happy to call off 8.2K with A high to win a little over 10K (fairly poor pot odds).  In reality I'm only ever going to be a 75/35 favourite if I'm calling against 2 random cards.  So given this fact what I'm asking is am I right to try to induce a shove when I know I'm committing myself to call for my tournament life or am I better off to just Jam pre and take the blinds?
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  • pr1nnyraidpr1nnyraid
    edited July 2012

    If it bricks for him this post wouldn't exist.

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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    If it bricks for him this post wouldn't exist.
    Posted by pr1nnyraid
    Indeed, it probably wouldn't.  The maths would still be the same though, hence the question.  I'm really trying not to be results orientated and analyise the situation.
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  • GlenelgGlenelg
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here? : Paul, 3x is larger than I would usually bet here, I opted for that size as I wanted to give the SB something chunky enough to try to steal whilst appearing to still leave myself some fold equity (I've played the villian many times before and he knows what he's doing). The reason for asking the question was that after getting exactly what I wanted I began to wonder if I'd over valued my hand at the end of the day I only had A high. I've essentially said that I'm happy to call off 8.2K with A high to win a little over 10K (fairly poor pot odds).  In reality I'm only ever going to be a 75/35 favourite if I'm calling against 2 random cards.  So given this fact what I'm asking is am I right to try to induce a shove when I know I'm committing myself to call for my tournament life or am I better off to just Jam pre and take the blinds?
    Posted by Slykllist
     
    You're never gonna be as high as this with AQ v ATC.  You're prob gonna be 67/68% at best.  Steal the blinds would be my move.  Curt & 1267  are much better players than me tho so I'll be trying their advice.  We're all here to learn & improve after all
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2012

    Just min raise the button, he's more likely to jam then as it looks like he has more fold equity. He's already jammed over a min raise before too so why change when we want him to do it again?


    Means you can raise/fold the button sometimes too. 
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  • pr1nnyraidpr1nnyraid
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here? : Indeed, it probably wouldn't.  The maths would still be the same though, hence the question.  I'm really trying not to be results orientated and analyise the situation.
    Posted by Slykllist
    I guess you have to take ICM into account and we don't have all the info..

    Purely on a chipEV basis, you should be calling here given villains range. You don't need to open shove as it takes alot of the play away, if you feel you have an edge over the field then try and play poker for as long as you can. Open shoving sets a precident to the table.

    I prefer a smaller raise, as you want to be able to play your premiums in a pot not just open jam. And you don't want to be min raising all premiums and open shoving anything else surely?
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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here? :   You're never gonna be as high as this with AQ v ATC.  You're prob gonna be 67/68% at best.  Steal the blinds would be my move.  Curt & 1267  are much better players than me tho so I'll be trying their advice.  We're all here to learn & improve after all
    Posted by Glenelg
    Sorry that should have said 65/35..... it was late!
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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here? : I guess you have to take ICM into account and we don't have all the info.. Purely on a chipEV basis, you should be calling here given villains range. You don't need to open shove as it takes alot of the play away, if you feel you have an edge over the field then try and play poker for as long as you can. Open shoving sets a precident to the table. I prefer a smaller raise, as you want to be able to play your premiums in a pot not just open jam. And you don't want to be min raising all premiums and open shoving anything else surely?
    Posted by pr1nnyraid
    Not an area of strength for me...... full details are, it was the Mini BH from last night, 91/542 remaining (60 to cash), so average stack would be 11,912 chips.  Starting stack 2000 chips, so 1,084,000 chips in play.  £3.00 entry so total prize fund = £1,626.00 which I guess makes each chip worth 0.15p.  Sooooo..... my stack is worth about £15.00 at this point..... I think!

    This is where I get stuck with ICM.... how should I be using this information?


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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited July 2012
    I dont understand the 3x raise we should be inducing here all day long snapping a shove by making it 3x your saying to him i have no fold equity.
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  • pr1nnyraidpr1nnyraid
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here? : Not an area of strength for me...... full details are, it was the Mini BH from last night, 91/542 remaining (60 to cash), so average stack would be 11,912 chips.  Starting stack 2000 chips, so 1,084,000 chips in play.  £3.00 entry so total prize fund = £1,626.00 which I guess makes each chip worth 0.15p.  Sooooo..... my stack is worth about £15.00 at this point..... I think! This is where I get stuck with ICM.... how should I be using this information?
    Posted by Slykllist
    Well it would be quite tough to do in your head unless your rainman?!

    You need an icm calculator, you can get them off the internet easy enough..

    But you still need to process alot of info and you can't necessarily do that in real time, maybe just play around with the numbers and prizes etc so you get a feel for it.

    I would advise reading an article or 2 on ICM as well and how to apply it to mtt's.

    At this stage in this tournament with a top heavy prize structure, usually a +chipEV play will be the right play and you can't go far wrong.  
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited July 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I just open shove here?:
    Just min raise the button, he's more likely to jam then as it looks like he has more fold equity. He's already jammed over a min raise before too so why change when we want him to do it again? Means you can raise/fold the button sometimes too. 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    +1
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  • dav1964dav1964
    edited July 2012
    TYPICAL sky poker situation,given how there softwarw works,ul and run better
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