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Have Free Poker Apps changed the way new players play?
CAN I PLEASE START THIS TREAD BY ASKING THE COMUNITY NOT TO TURN THIS INTO A BAD BEAT MOANS OR ATTACKS ON ANY PLAYERS. I STRESS THIS IS NOT A MOAN BUT A DISCUSSION.
Ok as a lot of you may know I have been a MTT player on the site for a while and myself and after table conversations with a few players I know there is a general ground swell of views that as always the game is changing.
I have been finding for the last few months and peaking at the moment when you pre raise 3x + there are a lot of players none who are regulars or long term sky players I will stress that will just call you down to the river with stupid 1 card outers and hitting just way too often. Of course we all know long term a very bad way to play and they wont win.
However an intresting views started coming through that ever since more and more free poker apps and facebook poker have increased so many players are calling with 92 off etc etc all the way to the river regardless how much you raise and bust you on the 1 outers.
Is this coming in with so many people learning the game on poker apps with no risk learning to play the game wrong but as so many are doing it it has changed the game.
Now I am in the Tikay camp punish limpers and have even joked and told players that they had just been taxed for limping but when they just call all the way down and bust decent hands with the 1 outers for so long now we all know it is a ever changing game.
I know there is no easy answer to this question as at any table you may have 3 poker app players and the rest good poker players and if I start to limp quite rightly any decent player will punish me.
But have other people found this and if so what have you done that is working. I do not want to limp but I am getting busted too often for raising with very good hands so in a changing game am I behind the trend?
Your thoughts please people and please I will stress again no bad beat moans, no naming of players etc just a discussion about a changing game.
Thanks
Comments
EXAMPLE:
For the ease of argument say 10% of the field are paid, with a 2k starting stack. Then at the time you reach the cash and 'succeed' in making profit, then the average stack would be 20k.
Obviously along the way to spin 2k into 20k then your whole stack, or a large portion of your stack will have to be at risk, at some point, potentially several times.
even if you just went 2k /> 4k > 8k >16k > etc etc your stack is still going to be at risk 4/5 times before the money and before you 'succeed' in making profit. Even if you are in as a 70% fav in each of these spots, you are more than likely to go bust before reaching the money, or at least the chip avg for the money spots.
This is a very basic, potentially inaccurate theory as mtt's don't just play out as above and certain intricacies are involved in chipping up and surviving with chips. But it serves in suppoting my outlook on mtt's.
The point I am making is that you have to change your goals in an mtt, understand that they are not instant return. Succeeding in an mtt isn't making the cash in that one instance, it's putting yourself in good spots and making correct chipEV / $EV decisions. So maybe if you look at a volume of mtt's as a whole and see how you are fairing in a larger sample, you would not be so dettered by short term run bad.
In regard to the whole limping - limp / call.. c/c.. c/c nature of your opponents, if you are consistently stacking off to people taking this line then i would suggest analysing your game. Are you predictable? are you always betting top pair on 3 streets then calling off a c/r shove when they get there? what kind of boards are you going broke on? Then try and adjust tplay accordingly, larger c-bets so you are getting more value out the bad calls. folding to c/r when you dont have the nuts & i mean THE NUTS.. etc etc
Anyway good luck we all run bad and it doesnt last forever (i'm hoping)
Hi Ryan.
Some valid points as always.
Early stages of an MTT seem to be my downfall at the moment and I certainly see where MrB is coming from.
Any tips on overcoming the "Any Two" callers at this stage of a tourny? because at the moment even a 5 x Raise Pre with KK/AA and then a 3/4 pot bet is just not getting the respect it deserves early on and its very frustrating being outdrawn with the likes of 94off and any 2 suited at this level.
Obviously on the cash table I would be loving these players and would just accept it and re-load. But unfortunately we cannot reload in most MTT's once we have gone busto.
I can understand at smaller stakes the chips having no real monetary value, but surely £11.00 and above they should be taken more seriously? or do we need to go even higher for this to happen?
Cheers
Trev.
Not thought about MTT's in that way for a long while and I suppose its easy to become complacent.
Your points on predictability has reminded me, its not just how I perceive other players at the table, its also how they perceive me.
Thanks
Trev.
Any tips on overcoming the "Any Two" callers at this stage of a tourny? because at the moment even a 5 x Raise Pre with KK/AA and then a 3/4 pot bet is just not getting the respect it deserves early on and its very frustrating being outdrawn with the likes of 94off and any 2 suited at this level.
If you are doing this and are getting paid most times, then I suggest you are doing nothing wrong. Occasionally 'Any Two' get there but most of the time they wont. Why do you want them to 'respect' a raise??? When I've got AA I want 7 2 suited to call. I want him to call on a straight/flush draw or with top pair. He won't get the odds/cheap cards against me and I constantly pick up chips when I get wiff of a drawing player. Geting worse hands to call is how you make da moniez in pokerz.
The game has not changed, but the players have, as has the way they play.
Good discipline & remembering the basics is more important now than it ever was.
Limpers & atc players? Bring 'em on, just remember to adjust your game to compensate, & accept a few flesh wounds on your way to long term profit.
Even now, we cant have our cake and eat it, so when Mr 9-3 man busts you, be grateful to him, & smile. He is tomorrow's profit.
Happy to take questions on this topic on tonight's Show.
EITHER Post on the Show Thread, or e-Mail them to SkyOpen@bskyb.com (I think!).
Thanks.
If your up against the type of player who will call with any two cards and continue calling all streets hoping to hit one of those 1 or 2 outers all you can do is make sure that your not the one making the mistakes in the hand and charge them well over the odds everytime your up against them to make sure that their mistakes get bigger and bigger each time.
It does become very frustrating though when it seems as though no matter what you do they always get there but at the end of the month when you see your bankroll has gone up this should let you know that it dosnt always end in tears.
My final word on this would be to play a good tight aggressive game and no matter how lucky they are in the short term it will become impossible for them to win long term playing this way.
Good luck at the tables mate.
Daz.
Personally, the more it is discussed, the better, as it makes me very sad when new players don't quite understand the logic of why we want to take on bad players, & how we should do so.
Generally, once they have played for a few months, they understand.
[QUOTE]yes ive found over the last month or so its getting worse, every one is just limping or flat calling raises all the way to river with either small pks hoping to hit there set even when flush draws overcards and you name it are there. They flat call with 2nd pair hoping to hit 2 pair they shove on draws with the likes of K2 suited after you raise with premiums you hit top pair raise and they shove on you and hit. Its becoming very frustrating and imo is really just bingo poker. They shove pre with Rag As after you raise which is beyond me because i dont understand what on earth they think there beating. The standard has dropped not sure if its the summer and the sun has got to them. But you regualarly see everyone limp pre you raise 3 or even 4x bb and then get 4 or 5 callers which if they had a decent hand why arnt they raising pre flop your AK or what ever you had is then in real danger and you have no idea where you are. Its taken the play out of the game for me and im not enjoying it. I suppose you have to adapt but it aint easy.
Posted by Dazler
Hi Dazzy.
Couple of things.
You refer repeatedly to "they". Who are "they"? "They are "us"! Poker players.
You also say - as many others have - "the standard has dropped". So, by extension, "they" are lesser players - bad players.
Are we really saying that we - good players - cannot beat them - the bad players. Because if we are, we need to take a long hard look at our own game!
Poker must be the ONLY game on earth where we complain about allegedly worse, or inferior, opponents!
Hope you run a bit better soon Dazzy. Keep doing the right things, & you'll be just fine, over time. You will.
That said, I'm 100% with Tikay on this, yes it's horrible when they suck out on you, yes you're going to get dumped out of tournaments by miracle river cards, yes you're probably going to get tilted by some of this play. But, YES 100% you want to be playing against these players, over time good poker will always beat bad poker and it's these players that we should see as providing us our next cash.
You keep hearing about the value being lost from Hold'em becuase of the standard increasing, that's clearly not the case here so we should be celebrating the fact these guys choose to play against us not bemoaning it.
with the popularity of 3 betting it makes sense that weak players choose to limp so they can simply call the inevitable raise and see flops with hands they didnt want to fold in the first place. this isn't likely to be a winning strategy but in a weird way seems a sensible way for the fish to combat the aggro way mtt early stages are played at the moment.
fish with brains
This is a great discussion on a subject which we have all been involved in on the tables from time to time.
When I say my raises are not getting the respect, what I mean is, I don't particularly want the whole table to be involved in a community pot.
I agree, YES, we want these types of players in the pot. (I wont call them bad as they may only be just learning the game) If I raise 3-4 x with AK, QQ etc I expect to get a couple callers, we want them, that how we are going to accumulate chips, however, I still think there may be a trend happening here, because instead of getting a couple of callers, I see the whole table calling quite often.
Now don't get me wrong, as we all know we want callers, but the more players we have in the pot, the less value our AK, QQ has and the more likely we are going to get outdrawn.
Does anyone think its getting much harder to get enough players to fold pre-flop and to fold down the streets?
ps. I outdrew "Tikay" once, back in the day when I wasn't scared to call an all in with Q, 10 lol. (Although it may have been suited) Thats a monsta! right? lol
There are excellent posts on here and i haven't had chance to read all of them as i'm out soon but will. What are theses free apps you talk about MrBURNS and where do i get them. Scotty's "statistcal not significant"...sorry doesn't help two hours in and junk sucks out in front on you. I've personally found DYM limping has become so prevalent recently. Even the calling is more 'relaxed' shall we say eg calling ai with k2s on bubble and equal stacks? Once, a high blind limper starts then all seem to do it at the table to introduce a check raise option. Its almost as if safety is there and they may catch two pair on a junkish flop. Consequently, knowing where you stand seems more difficult.
Funny though, as its something i'd noticed too MRBURNS. Good thread though and i like the bit about no bad beats. I've tilted a couple of times from 'poor' calls which have sucked out. The one above did ,even after the first card wa a Q, but i suppose we should see it as a learning experience. It can be infuriating though...