This is always a call, right? Right?

BorinLoner

First hand of a £3.30 deepstack tournament. The 5-bet is surely very strong pre-flop but is it reasonable to think that more often than not the shove is coming from a hand I beat, just trying to take the pot down? I've removed the result, though I'm sure everyone can guess.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Quietman	Small blind		10.00	10.00	4990.00
FlyingDagg	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4980.00
	Your hole cards	K K
waller02	Fold
imber	Fold
FLASHJONNY	Fold
DTWBANDIT	Call		20.00	50.00	4980.00
Ice_Tiger	Fold
BorinLoner	Raise		80.00	130.00	4920.00
Player A	Raise		140.00	270.00	4860.00
Quietman	Fold
FlyingDagg	Call		120.00	390.00	4860.00
DTWBANDIT	Fold
BorinLoner	Raise		520.00	910.00	4400.00
Player A	Raise		920.00	1830.00	3940.00
FlyingDagg	Fold
BorinLoner	Call		460.00	2290.00	3940.00
Flop
		5 J 3
BorinLoner	Check
Player A	All-in		3940.00	6230.00	0.00
BorinLoner	All-in		3940.00	10170.00	0.00

Ploppy33

In Response to This is always a call, right? Right?:

First hand of a £3.30 deepstack tournament. The 5-bet is surely very strong pre-flop but is it reasonable to think that more often than not the shove is coming from a hand I beat, just trying to take the pot down? I've removed the result, though I'm sure everyone can guess. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Quietman Small blind   10.00 10.00 4990.00 FlyingDagg Big blind   20.00 30.00 4980.00   Your hole cards K K       waller02 Fold         imber Fold         FLASHJONNY Fold         DTWBANDIT Call   20.00 50.00 4980.00 Ice_Tiger Fold         BorinLoner Raise   80.00 130.00 4920.00 Player A  Raise   140.00 270.00 4860.00 Quietman Fold         FlyingDagg Call   120.00 390.00 4860.00 DTWBANDIT Fold         BorinLoner Raise   520.00 910.00 4400.00 Player A  Raise   920.00 1830.00 3940.00 FlyingDagg Fold         BorinLoner Call   460.00 2290.00 3940.00 Flop     5 J 3       BorinLoner Check         Player A  All-in   3940.00 6230.00 0.00 BorinLoner All-in   3940.00 10170.00 0.00
Posted by BorinLoner

if u r going to call shove post flop why not 6-bet/fold?

That way u probably know for sure & is less costly

BorinLoner

That would mean 6-bet bluffing pre-flop with KK. If I 6-bet, I'm almost certain to fold out all the AK's and QQ's and only get called by hands that beat me. That's not something I want. By calling I can keep in those hands... and any weirder hands that he might possibly have.

I'm happy with the pre-flop play though I'd entertain any arguments for folding to the 5-bet if anyone wants to take up that debate.

Also, what do we make of my 4-bet size? Too big at 600?

beaneh

I likes

beaneh

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

In Response to This is always a call, right? Right? : if u r going to call shove post flop why not 6-bet/fold? That way u probably know for sure & is less costly
Posted by Ploppy33

We check call ai so he can bluff or bet worse for value, betting ourselves probably succeeds in just folding out all worse that we want to get value from.

As for preflop we have to iso and once there is the cold caller we have to reraise again. 

flop considering we like it so much is fine to cbet small or just check.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

I likes
Posted by beaneh

Thank you.

I lost 250BB with KK - It feels as though it must be bad. Maybe I'm being daft. I struggle to see what I could have done differently, I just thought perhaps someone else could spot a mistake.

Lambert180

I think it's a call. Maybe it's just me, but if I had JJ, QQ, KK, or AA (if I was the opponent) I'd be betting alot smaller (well, not shove anyway) on the flop because I'm probably either miles ahead or miles behind, and I'm not folding post-flop when it's come like that, so should keep their range as wide as possible.

AK I might check behind and take a free card. Seems bizarre for him to shove top set or AA on such a safe board.

beaneh

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

I think it's a call. Maybe it's just me, but if I had JJ, QQ, KK, or AA (if I was the opponent) I'd be betting alot smaller (well, not shove anyway) on the flop because I'm probably either miles ahead or miles behind, and I'm not folding post-flop when it's come like that, so should keep their range as wide as possible. AK I might check behind and take a free card. Seems bizarre for him to shove top set or AA on such a safe board.
Posted by Lambert180

many things are bizarre and make no sense yet they happen constantly in £100 freezeouts, let alone 3.30 deepies on sky! KINGS BABY

beaneh

fwiw I didn't see his mini reraise after you made it 540 it makes me want to fold more but I still don't ldo it's dem kingies.

if you really feel you're stacking off too much with ops in these comps then try not having a 3betting range early on or at least do it with a very polarized range.

w/e ffs 3.30 on sky with kings WEEEEEE KINGIES

rancid

snap - sigh - what !

unknown_username

Hi Borin

That KK hand pops up again eh that you gave me advice on. The deep stack T allows more room for 4 and 5 betting doesn't it but you do have 2nd best hand and great chance to double up early on. What do you know about this player.
I think i would have shoved pre flop once i got the 920 and if not then shoved first bet post flop. Its early...if i'm out then so be it....theres not much to guard and he could have 4 bet w/ QQ, couldn't he.
Mind you've seen how i play KK so probably disregarding this is best...cheers
Ps Aren't raises a little small and shouldn't they be 3xprev raise?

percival09

I probz go all in pref

grantorino

Yeah

I prob just shove over the 5b, doubt he folds much

6b/f pre sounds lolbad to me, leading flop as played also bad imo

oynutter

 Stinks of aces innit--- In a ten handed game this is much more likely to happen--- Ask yourself (just for d craic) if you would fold in the first hand of the main event in vegas---lol--

oynutter

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

I think it's a call. Maybe it's just me, but if I had JJ, QQ, KK, or AA (if I was the opponent) I'd be betting alot smaller (well, not shove anyway) on the flop because I'm probably either miles ahead or miles behind, and I'm not folding post-flop when it's come like that, so should keep their range as wide as possible. AK I might check behind and take a free card. Seems bizarre for him to shove top set or AA on such a safe board.
Posted by Lambert180

 Not really imo, he is sure that his opponent has kk or qq

BorinLoner

I guess I might be giving my opponents too much credit for being able to fold QQ or AK pre-flop, facing a 6-bet shove for 250BB. It might be an awful call but I suppose alot of players would make it. I do prefer the way I played it, though.

Whether the shove on the flop is good with Aces or not depends on this player's opinion of me. I've never played him before and this was the first hand... but I have posted on the clinic a fair bit so maybe he knows more about me than I do about him. I wouldn't flat the 5-bet with much here, so I suppose my range is totally unbalanced. (I wouldn't 6-bet with anything)

That's what I think the main problem with this hand is, which oynutter touches on. It relies on my opponent to think I could have flatted with hands weaker than KK if he's ever going to pay me off on the flop with AK, QQ or weaker. I think it's generally alright against unknowns because they would know that many weak players would flat the small 5-bet, thinking they were "priced in". If I'm known to the opponent, I think it's impossible.

Basically it's probably a cooler the moment that FlyingDagg calls the 3-bet from the blinds. After that I can never realistically flat the 3-bet myself... not that I ever would since I'm a donk. lol

grantorino

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

I guess I might be giving my opponents too much credit for being able to fold QQ or AK pre-flop, facing a 6-bet shove for 250BB. It might be an awful call but I suppose alot of players would make it. I do prefer the way I played it, though. Whether the shove on the flop is good with Aces or not depends on this player's opinion of me. I've never played him before and this was the first hand... but I have posted on the clinic a fair bit so maybe he knows more about me than I do about him. I wouldn't flat the 5-bet with much here, so I suppose my range is totally unbalanced. (I wouldn't 6-bet with anything) That's what I think the main problem with this hand is, which oynutter touches on. It relies on my opponent to think I could have flatted with hands weaker than KK if he's ever going to pay me off on the flop with AK, QQ or weaker. I think it's generally alright against unknowns because they would know that many weak players would flat the small 5-bet, thinking they were "priced in". If I'm known to the opponent, I think it's impossible. Basically it's probably a cooler the moment that FlyingDagg calls the 3-bet from the blinds. After that I can never realistically flat the 3-bet myself... not that I ever would since I'm a donk. lol
Posted by BorinLoner

Why would 5b/f QQ be better than calling off a 6bet shove?

Why can't you flat once someone cold calls 3b?

IMO once you 4b you can't fold either pre or on flop without very good reads

oynutter

 Thing is, you played too aggressive for JJ-ak ect, so if he thinks you are a good player, you can only have kk or maybe qq---first hand of a deep stack with 1000 quid prize pool, I think a shove is fine against any opponent, if only because we don't want another decision here.

oynutter

 Did you "half" know he had aces?

oynutter

 Then you should only call half the time----lol

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right? : Why would 5b/f QQ be better than calling off a 6bet shove? Why can't you flat once someone cold calls 3b? IMO once you 4b you can't fold either pre or on flop without very good reads
Posted by grantorino

Good point. lol

No, I was never folding after the 4-bet.

What I mean is that after the 3-bet is flatted in the blinds, I wouldn't want to risk taking it multi-way to the flop so I was always going to 4-bet. If it's just me and the 3-better, I can flat to keep his entire 3-betting range in. Though I probably still 4-bet to build the pot with the second nuts...

I'm calling it a cooler in my head and leaving it there. It's important for my sanity.

oynutter

 But boringloner, your 520 said I GOT KK. and he reraised you, surely you have to fold!!!

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

 But boringloner, your 520 said I GOT KK. and he reraised you, surely you have to fold!!!
Posted by oynutter

Keep it between us but I 4-bet alot of hands.

Let's be honest, though. Players overvalue AK, QQ, JJ, etc all the time so when I'm 5-bet it's not necessarily only AA. Although you're right, I did get that nasty feeling that "Hmmm... this might not be good news"

oynutter

 Aye, the only way to find out if he had aces would be to raise another 920, then fold to a shove-lol

grantorino

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right?:

In Response to Re: This is always a call, right? Right? : Good point. lol No, I was never folding after the 4-bet. What I mean is that after the 3-bet is flatted in the blinds, I wouldn't want to risk taking it multi-way to the flop so I was always going to 4-bet. If it's just me and the 3-better, I can flat to keep his entire 3-betting range in. Though I probably still 4-bet to build the pot with the second nuts... I'm calling it a cooler in my head and leaving it there. It's important for my sanity.
Posted by BorinLoner

4betting prob best play, but if you don't want to get committed why not flat 3b? Like its 3way but you can stitll back yourself to play pokah in this spot