30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.

DOHHHHHHH

Villain looks like a new reg I've never played before. Decided to avoid him on all 6 tables for a while to see how he plays, he's deffo not a nitty type reg like post, I've seen him in 3b pots showing down 34s. He's opening alot of pots too.

Decided to start taking up the challenge and 3betting/peeling v him in some spots & having a go at him post flop.

Thought this was a decent spot to do so, with him opening wide from the cut off.

My question is on the river, I know ppl will say I have a straight in a 3bet pot, but I'm pretty sure he's never bluffing this river with the line he's taken.

He probably thinks I have Ax and expects me to call....

If he thinks I have Ax that pushes his range towards like AK/AQ/22/33 maybe A2/A3 suited.

He probably 4b/gets in AK pre flop too so I'm not even sure I can include that.

I guess he could even have the same hand as me.

If this is never a bluff, (I don't think it ever is), what can I beat?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceandybeth Small blind  £0.15 £0.15 £44.42 DOTUN19 Big blind  £0.30 £0.45 £38.91  Your hole cards 5 4    Jrvs Fold     xxx Raise  £0.90 £1.35 £73.18 DOHHHHHHH Raise  £3.00 £4.35 £28.05 andybeth Fold     DOTUN19 Fold     xxxCall  £2.10 £6.45 £71.08 Flop  A 2 3    xxxCheck     DOHHHHHHH Bet  £3.90 £10.35 £24.15 xxx Call  £3.90 £14.25 £67.18 Turn  Q    xxx Check     DOHHHHHHH Bet  £9.90 £24.15 £14.25 xxxCall  £9.90 £34.05 £57.28 River  A    xxxAll-in  £57.28 £91.33 £0.00 DOHHHHHHH

IDONKCALLU

only beating a bluff and i cant see that just unlucky 

grantorino

Why you 3bet so big pre?

Did he 3b the 34s or call it

 I'm calling off without better reads getting those odds, but yeah it kinda sucks

DOHHHHHHH

I thought standard sizes pre were 3 ----> 10 ---->23 ?

I read that in here once and it stuck in my head, not sure who posted it.

He peeled the 34s in position against another laggy-ish player, flopped a gutshot and a flushdraw, flatted, turned it, flatted, and shoved when his opponent c/c river. 

BorinLoner

I agree with grantorino... He could have just hit trips on the river with a King, Jack or Ten and doesn't want to give you the chance to check-back with Ace-rag. It's a less than half-pot bet anyway.

Who knows, he might think you're a fish that could call with KK or a Queen but will always check those back. He could even be making some maniacal bluff... though he's probably not. Better than 3/1 on my money, I make the call.

percival09

3b way too big

call river

NColley

10bb 3 bet is not 'way too big' imo

don't fold river

jams88

3b pre is standard imo this the size being used by most regs at the moment nl30 to change size means need to change for all our value hands to. River is yuk but it i think we have to call

percival09

what's the point in making it 10bb in position?

you're just inflating the pot unnecessarily 

anything around £2 is good imo. £3 might be ok oop

keep the pot small for your bluffs and keep it small to induce a 4b bluff too for when you have the nutz. making it £3 is ok if you know 4sure villain will call anything with anything

yb

100bb deep i'd make it 9bb to go

KKrippler

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

what's the point in making it 10bb in position? you're just inflating the pot unnecessarily  anything around £2 is good imo. £3 might be ok oop keep the pot small for your bluffs and keep it small to induce a 4b bluff too for when you have the nutz. making it £3 is ok if you know 4sure villain will call anything with anything
Posted by percival09

Keeping 3 bets small to induce a 4b bluff. No.

This never happens, ppl are too nitty to 4b bluff, they will just call and hope to hit.

KKrippler

this villain in another hand, donk led from the small blind with btm set on a wet low flop nd stacked me cause I cant fold overpairs.

So i think is donk leads are always going to b really strong.

percival09

I know plenty of players who 4b bluff so please specify your comment. 

pryce6

You have 14 back pot is 34. 

Don't ever fold? 

Turn is slightly too big for me. 

beaneh

Dohhh you need to actually work out reasoning for 3betting rather than other people do it ...

You're hand plays great IP so we RR to lose most of it's value. Once we do this flop in a three bet pot I wouldn't notice the turn/river i'd be too busy crying with laughter as I hovered over the right area where if he shoves the 'call' button will appear.

people need to stop being so inanely nitty about 9/10bb sizing.

unknown_username

I'm fairly new to poker and only been playing for 6 months, but I've read the c**p out of the game during this time, so I'll tell you what I think of this. 

I don't think what you did pre-flop was 'wrong', it's a fresh approach but shouldn't be overused. I would probably call 90% and re-raise 10% of the time just to keep them guessing.

They called your 3-bet, called your 2/3 pot bet on flop, called your 2/3 pot bet on turn then shoved all-in on the end.

So, check-call, check-call, all-in.

Here's how I would assign the likely holdings.

AA - 7.5%, you lose (although likely to 4-bet pre-flop)

AQ - 25%, you lose

AK - 25%, you win

KK - 7.5%, you win (although likely to 4-bet pre-flop)

QQ - 20%, you lose

Your hand - 5%, tie

Bluff - 10%, you win  

 *I don't think any other hands are worth including, but correct me if I've missed something

The pot's £48 and it costs you £14.25 to call. So by my calculations, you win 42.5% of the time and are being offered odds of 30%.

I would actually call.

Depending on what read you have on this player, and their previous bettings and showdown, you may assign more/less % to bluffing or other hands that may make this a fold

I'm quite a new poster so I don't expect to be right, but I hope this helps

*Apologies for incorrect post earlier.

rancid

do we 3 bet 95o or 45s

looking to outplay post or just out flop
does oppo know that you know oppo has been opening a lot
does 3 betting only acheive folding out a lot of oppo range

maybe calling is better

WHOAMI196

what's the hub-ub with this hand? .. 

Call! 

He is probably a typical fishy reg that will set mine relentlessly, and have 22, 33 but with so many combinations of AK, AJ, A10 out there that you cant rule out (since he is pretty much unknown to you) and weighing up the pot odds you cant fold,  well that's my opinion anyway lol.

Pokerstove for reassurance ..

Board: As 2c 3h Qs Ad

Dead:  

equity win tie      pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 54.545%   54.55% 00.00%            18        0.00   { 5s4s }

Hand 1: 45.455%   45.45% 00.00%            15        0.00   { QQ, 33-22, ATs+, AJo+ }

A10 a bit ambitious? its still a profitable 50/50 shot after removing it. 

even when removing AJ we are getting a close to break-even call having ~35% equity.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

Dohhh you need to actually work out reasoning for 3betting rather than other people do it ... You're hand plays great IP so we RR to lose most of it's value. Once we do this flop in a three bet pot I wouldn't notice the turn/river i'd be too busy crying with laughter as I hovered over the right area where if he shoves the 'call' button will appear. people need to stop being so inanely nitty about 9/10bb sizing.
Posted by beaneh

How do I go about doing this?

When I used to play cash, I used to raise and re-raise alot of flops and turns and play very aggressive post flop....

Since then (whilst playing lots of heads up sngs) I've learnt more about how to manipulate opponents ranges down the streets by calling rather than raising in alot of spots, cracked (in the main) the pot/stack ratio thing, and become better at floating and representing in position....

(all imo^^^^.....)

Trying to get the outright aggression back in my game somewhere, and it seems the best/only way to do this is pre flop.

I'm just guessing though, trial and error. Some theory to help me out would be good, I'll do a google search after this

I thought posting some hands here would help, it does sometimes but normally just get told I'm doing it wrong every time. No matter what I do. lol.

np like, I just don't get why.

---------------------------------------

ty for everyones replies here, a few interesting ones!!!

He had AQ, but we all knew that. (As I did before I called)

beaneh

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet. : How do I go about doing this? When I used to play cash, I used to raise and re-raise alot of flops and turns and play very aggressive post flop.... Since then (whilst playing lots of heads up sngs) I've learnt more about how to manipulate opponents ranges down the streets by calling rather than raising in alot of spots, cracked (in the main) the pot/stack ratio thing, and become better at floating and representing in position.... (all imo^^^^.....) Trying to get the outright aggression back in my game somewhere, and it seems the best/only way to do this is pre flop. I'm just guessing though, trial and error. Some theory to help me out would be good, I'll do a google search after this I thought posting some hands here would help, it does sometimes but normally just get told I'm doing it wrong every time. No matter what I do. lol. np like, I just don't get why. --------------------------------------- ty for everyones replies here, a few interesting ones!!! He had AQ, but we all knew that. (As I did before I called)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I'm hardly going to spend hours and hours trying to improve your game, I just post with regards to specific hands you put up.

Recently i've criticised you for 3betting very playable hands IP. Try adjusting slightly the hands you 3bet IP and start calling more IP. take it from there!

you're welcome to pay me for coaching, i'd have you beating nl100 in no time lol

IDONKCALLU

lol 

grantorino

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet. : How do I go about doing this? When I used to play cash, I used to raise and re-raise alot of flops and turns and play very aggressive post flop.... Since then (whilst playing lots of heads up sngs) I've learnt more about how to manipulate opponents ranges down the streets by calling rather than raising in alot of spots, cracked (in the main) the pot/stack ratio thing, and become better at floating and representing in position.... (all imo^^^^.....) Trying to get the outright aggression back in my game somewhere, and it seems the best/only way to do this is pre flop. I'm just guessing though, trial and error. Some theory to help me out would be good, I'll do a google search after this I thought posting some hands here would help, it does sometimes but normally just get told I'm doing it wrong every time. No matter what I do. lol. np like, I just don't get why. --------------------------------------- ty for everyones replies here, a few interesting ones!!! He had AQ, but we all knew that. (As I did before I called)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

 

Why are you trying to get outright aggression back in your game? Same applies with trying to 3bet more pre. Seem like silly aspirations to me, and ones that are likely to make you spew. Look for spots where you can bluff etc, not say oh yeah let's 3bet more all the cool hi stakes guys do

Just guessing is exactly what you are doing. You have made no effort to think about your ranges (or at least havent posted any reasoning if you have) or why 3betting certain hands might be good or bad. Your opponents range and your image are vital.

grantorino

To get you started, In general 3bet top of your range for value (hands that beat villains continuing range)
3bet hands that are not strong enough to call with as a bluff (obv fold them sometimes). Preferably these will be hands which might flop well.
Don't 3 bet hands that you can call a single raise profitably, but will be behind villains continuing range
All these ranges are dynamic especially as villain adjusts, eg you may be able to 3b for value wider if he adjusts to you 3betting a lot by calling wide.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

To get you started, In general  3bet top of your range for value (hands that beat villains continuing range) 3bet hands that are not strong enough to call with as a bluff (obv fold them sometimes). Preferably these will be hands which might flop well. Don't 3 bet hands that you can call a single raise profitably, but will be behind villains continuing range All these ranges are dynamic especially as villain adjusts, eg you may be able to 3b for value wider if he adjusts to you 3betting a lot by calling wide.
Posted by grantorino

Cheers, this helps.

So I Just need to call alot more on all streets then! See more flops etc.

What happened to aggression being the biggest weapon in poker?

Also ty beaneh, didn't expect hours for free, maybe 5 mins to write a post, lol. "If you don't ask, you don't get!"

beaneh

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet.:

In Response to Re: 30nl 3b pot, smack the flop but facing a river value bet. : Cheers, this helps. So I Just need to call alot more on all streets then! See more flops etc. What happened to aggression being the biggest weapon in poker? Also ty beaneh, didn't expect hours for free, maybe 5 mins to write a post, lol. "If you don't ask, you don't get!"
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lol you've had hours for free before! S'not like this is the first time i've answered one of your threads.

There are always such generic open questions, HOW DOES ONE PLAY POKAS?

WHY DOES ONE BET ETC

Most people who post in TPC just want to be told this or that is the 'correct way to play a certain hand' orsituation. When every single situation in poker is slightly different, and people should  be looking to learn all the reasoning behind different plays rather than just learn how to play JACK AND ACE OR Jack and jack etc.

It would be alot easier to discuss topics such as this through coaching because that is normally one on one rather than someone just spouting loads of stuff on open  public forums for all and sundry to see.