Over Shove River for Value?

Lambert180

Thoughts please... good spot to over-shove for value? I think villian definitely calls with tons of worse Ax hands here... just happened to walk into the old 38s... any thoughts on the whole hand?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
walter1959	Sit out
Lambert180	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.17
diostam11	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.46
	Your hole cards	A K
longman912	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£0.49
tc99	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£6.40
Avro	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£3.33
Lambert180	Raise		£0.20	£0.38	£3.97
diostam11	Call		£0.18	£0.56	£3.28
longman912	Fold
tc99	Fold
Avro	Call		£0.18	£0.74	£3.15
Flop
		2 4 5
Lambert180	Bet		£0.37	£1.11	£3.60
diostam11	Call		£0.37	£1.48	£2.91
Avro	Call		£0.37	£1.85	£2.78
Turn
		4
Lambert180	Check
diostam11	Check
Avro	Check
River
		A
Lambert180	All-in		£3.60	£5.45	£0.00
diostam11	All-in		£2.91	£8.36	£0.00
Avro	Fold
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		£0.69	£7.67	£0.69
Lambert180	Show	A K
diostam11	Show	3 8
diostam11	Win	Straight to the 5	£7.09		£7.09

DoubleAAA

Raise more pre as you're OOP 4x +1 for each limper £0.28

Pot £0.92 Flop bet 2/3 £0.60

Turn Shove

Btn limp/calls so unless he's hit that board with some A2, A5, 22-33, 56, fd hand you're handing him a spanking if he always calls your turn shove on a draw at 2/1 odds.

But you also have to follow this line when you do have made hands for it to play profitably as these spewtards will call you off with top pair weak kicker and draws etc.

bearlyther

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

Raise more pre as you're OOP 4x +1 for each limper £0.28 Pot £0.92 Flop bet 2/3 £0.60 Turn Shove Btn limp/calls so unless he's hit that board with some A2, A5, 22-33, 56, fd hand you're handing him a spanking if he always calls your turn shove on a draw at 2/1 odds.
Posted by DoubleAAA

At these limits yes i would over shove the river will get called by random pairs alot.

Lambert180

I'm never shoving the turn here with so little in the pot (even if I'd have raised more pre and c-bet). I just don't think I get folds enough to combine with my probable 10 outs to make it +EV.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

Raise more pre as you're OOP 4x +1 for each limper £0.28 Pot £0.92 Flop bet 2/3 £0.60 Turn Shove Btn limp/calls so unless he's hit that board with some A2, A5, 22-33, 56, fd hand you're handing him a spanking if he always calls your turn shove on a draw at 2/1 odds. But you also have to follow this line when you do have made hands for it to play profitably as these spewtards will call you off with top pair weak kicker and draws etc.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Yeah shoving turn is awesome

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

I'm never shoving the turn here with so little in the pot (even if I'd have raised more pre and c-bet). I just don't think I get folds enough to combine with my probable 10 outs to make it +EV.
Posted by Lambert180

Look at there stack sizes it's a pot size bet that puts them virtually all in and if you follow this line you'll also get called when you have your made hands.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value? : Yeah shoving turn is awesome
Posted by grantorino

Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic lol

Lambert180

Their stack sizes are irrelevant if I don't have the equity though. On the turn I have (probably) 10 outs, so about 20% chance of hitting... there is no way on earth I'm getting folds anywhere near the amount I need to make this +EV

And I don't think you need to make these kinda -EV plays to help you get paid off at this level, because people will pay you off anyway lol.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value? : Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic lol
Posted by DoubleAAA

 I'm pretty drunk but I am prob being sarcastic

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value? :  I'm pretty drunk but I am prob being sarcastic
Posted by grantorino

haha

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

Their stack sizes are irrelevant if I don't have the equity though. On the turn I have (probably) 10 outs, so about 20% chance of hitting... there is no way on earth I'm getting folds anywhere near the amount I need to make this +EV And I don't think you need to make these kinda -EV plays to help you get paid off at this level, because people will pay you off anyway lol.
Posted by Lambert180

So do you take this same line on the turn when you have a made hand or do you always bet it?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value? : So do you take this same line on the turn when you have a made hand or do you always bet it?
Posted by DoubleAAA

I doubt it but he is playing 4nl so who cares whether he plays it the same

Looks pretty stupid when you shove and get snapped by A2

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value?:

In Response to Re: Over Shove River for Value? : So do you take this same line on the turn when you have a made hand or do you always bet it?
Posted by DoubleAAA

I think your missing the point. We bet the turn when we have the hand and check when we don't. Being balanced doesn't matter at this level. 

unknown_username

Bet biger pre. 28-32p.

Dont mind half pot c-bet but i probably make it a tad bigger, turn is fine. River at NL4 i probably either bet-fold 1/2 pot or even check-call depending on aggression levels of villain. Even at NL4 i dont like the overshove on such a wet board, its quite possible with all that limp calling, or calling from BB, that all sorts of rubbish can turn up on the end.

percival09

this hand is too spewy imo. I'm not cbetting at nl4 with 2 players behind on this flop, theyre never folding any pair, any draw, they'll probz call with 2 overs. I probs b/f river, I suppose you might get called with a worse A but sometimes you'll be beat too. I like bf

unknown_username

Yeah, see what you mean percival, its close. Probably read dependant but checking flop is ok as is a c-bet before slowing down. Im definitely not c-betting in to any more players.

percival09

anyone think it's weird how I sometimes use 'probz' and sometimes 'probs' ?

unknown_username

I do now!

DoubleAAA

Yes you guys are right at 4NL is best just to bet your made hands and check your missed hands in multiway pots as they're not folding anything.  That's what happens when I post late at night

So with that being said, raise more pre as you want to charge the callers as much as you possibly can, chk flop & turn, b/call river as they may raise you with a weak A.

Wilhelm

I would never overshove the river on such a wet board.  B/f probably best.  The stack to pot ratio makes things difficult.  Maybe c/c or c/f is better.  I'm not sure.

Fwiw I would make it 24p pre and I don't mind betting or checking the flop.

I like the check on the turn.

u_sud_fold

b fold river

IDONKCALLU

tbh this is a horrible spot to over bet shove paul it really is u are only getting called by better overshove with the nuts to get called by a lower full house or lower str8 etc think this is a bad move pal myself is a q a j really going to call your shove ? 

Lambert180

Well yes, AQ, AJ, AT, and probably worse will snap me off here. It's not a huge amount more than a pot sized bet for him, and if he'll call that he'll call a shove. TBH I think I was probably being a bit RO when I posted this because he happened to have a 3 this time. I think alot more often he's got junk Ax hands and snaps off. Maybe I'm wrong, would like to get grantorino, Percival, Borin (etc) to give some thoughts. No offence meant to you Donk, just they're very good cash players.

IDONKCALLU

lmao sorry gotta laugh 

grantorino

River is a b/f imo

Not sure they have Ax one pair hands and call off a massive overbet on a 4 straight paired board often enough