Worst turn card

sighcall

I need some help with this hand,I didnt reraise pre becuse I wanted to keep him in the hand and becuse I had been playing tight I thourght that when I 4-Bet his range immediatlety goes to AK,AA,KK and I dont want to be getting my money in bad or as a flip. 
When flop comes it is possibly one of the best flops, I place a value bet.
He calls and K on turn , very scary, what do I do? I feel if I put in a bet the pot is so big that i am commithed if he has hit his K. Do I call his bet? at the time I was convinced he had hit his king now I look again his line makes no sence. 
At the time i felt he had made a spewy call on the flop, hit turn, checked hoping I would bet again, then value shoved on river. Now I llok back it looks bluffy do u just shove if u hit your king or put in a value bet?
Had too many people make plays like this in the past where i call he shows K2 and I sigh heavily lol.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebladeboy07Small blind £0.15£0.15£30.21elbows7Big blind £0.30£0.45£29.96 Your hole cardsQQ   manxman2Fold    soliFold    sighcallRaise £0.90£1.35£37.17SJspanky1Fold    bladeboy07Raise £3.15£4.50£27.06elbows7Fold    sighcallCall £2.40£6.90£34.77Flop  6106   bladeboy07Check    sighcallBet £5.18£12.08£29.59bladeboy07Call £5.18£17.26£21.88Turn  K   bladeboy07Check    sighcallCheck    River  9   bladeboy07All-in £21.88£39.14£0.00sighcallFold    bladeboy07Muck    bladeboy07Win £16.39 £16.39bladeboy07Return £21.88£0.87£38.27

percival09

what about villain? What's his 3b range like? Unless he's v.tight and is only 3betting QQ/KK/AK I 4b with the intention of getting it in. 

Villains check otf is suspicious. I think I might check back. He's surely cbetting his entire range that misses the flop, even more so considering he's oop. He's only checking a set of 10s, perhaps AA, and maybe a pair of 10s, like J10, Q10. If you do bet the flop, I bet smaller

I check back turn too

I'm folding river. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a set of 10s or AA. I'm sure AK would lead out on the flop but perhaps not. Has to be AA, 1010 or AK imo. 

But more times than not I 4b and get it in pre. I can't see stacks but I'm presuming you were both roughly 100bb

sighcall

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

what about villain? What's his 3b range like? Unless he's v.tight and is only 3betting QQ/KK/AK I 4b with the intention of getting it in.  Villains check otf is suspicious. I think I might check back. He's surely cbetting his entire range that misses the flop, even more so considering he's oop. He's only checking a set of 10s, perhaps AA, and maybe a pair of 10s, like J10, Q10. If you do bet the flop, I bet smaller I check back turn too I'm folding river. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a set of 10s or AA. I'm sure AK would lead out on the flop but perhaps not. Has to be AA, 1010 or AK imo.  But more times than not I 4b and get it in pre. I can't see stacks but I'm presuming you were both roughly 100bb
Posted by percival09

Ok thanks,

What I am saying is NOT that he only 3-Bets QQ,KK,AA,AK I am saying that when I 4 -Bet all KJ,KQ,1010,JJ etc that would make a 3-Bet will fold and only AK,KK,QQ will get it in. 

Id rather allow a hand like KJ,AJ etc to see a flop and hopefully hit J and I can get more moneis than just the £1.80 or whatver he put in.

percival09

I know what you're saying but it depends on villain as well as you. Villain might not even be paying attention to you. your thinking makes sense but like I said at this level I'm only flatting here if I think he's only 3betting tight. If villain is super aggro flatting here might be ok sometimes. You're probs trying to balance too much

huuuuume

cant see many ways you're winning on the river so fold looks fine.  don't see villain playing many bluffs this wya tbh.

not sure what you're hoping to achieve with the bet on the flop

LOL_RAISE

id bet smaller on flop ~halfpot

percival09

what do you expect to be called by that 3bets and checks oop on this flop?

sighcall

I undersatnd what your are saying, but what are you doing then, checking?

Id rather just take the pot down there than have a scary turn card and loose the pot to K2 when I have put no pressure on the opponent on that flop id be kicking myself. 

percival09

I'm asking what he's checking on the flop.

Surely he's cbetting his missed hands, i.e. AK, AQ, K2, w.e. Maybe sometimes he'll check AK but I'm usually cbetting, even more so out of position. 

Checking keeps all his worse hands in that he's possibly checking, like a J10 or Q10. If you bet and get raised it's sh****t. I'm checking most of the time to see what he does on the turn because on that flop it's unusual that he hasnt cbet and you have such a strong hand but you dont want to be check raised in this spot. 

how do you know youre going to take the pot down? If he checked with AK he's probably still going to call your bet. I think it's an easy check. But yeah if you do bet you have to bet smaller

IDONKCALLU

+1 to lol raise half pot on flop then barrel the turn if u get called obv u are behind and have to give up bet to big ob flop imo 

percival09

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

+1 to lol raise half pot on flop then barrel the turn if u get called obv u are behind and have to give up bet to big ob flop imo 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

so youre betting for information on the turn? When the pot is all ready huge. Makes no sense

rancid

to bet flop or not depends on oppo 3bet range

think it also depends on our peceived range when we flat 3 bet and then bet flop

w/o reads checking flop is good

IDONKCALLU

well a good player would float on flop so call any bet to take away on the turn u can check give up on the turn for me that is to weak 

bearlyther

100% always bet this flop checking would be so bad.  Check on turn is fine when the king comes off then on river its a snap fold when he over pots it.

percival09

why would it be so bad? What's his range that checks the flop oop in a 3b pot? What's calling us that we beat? What if we get raised?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

why would it be so bad? What's his range that checks the flop oop in a 3b pot? What's calling us that we beat? What if we get raised?
Posted by percival09

Not many c/f that flop either. Checking seems good, don't think betting that bad either though, depends. Definitely dont bet so big

Fold river

sighcall

I dont undersatnd how you can all check that flop sweetest hand just looking avlue for all hands he has that have a ten in and JJ. Also he may make calls with AK etc or random junk if he is a bad player. 

Remember that not all players c-bet, so when he doesnt thats in i open fold QQ and give up???

Already £7 pot at NL30 dont wanna give hom a free card if he calls with AK, K2, A2 and all other yuck calls then good luck to him but when turn is a brick im moving to all-in city next to shovesville.

This bad? Of cousre he always has AA,KK,1010 here?!

huuuuume

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

I dont undersatnd how you can all check that flop sweetest hand just looking avlue for all hands he has that have a ten in and JJ. Also he may make calls with AK etc or random junk if he is a bad player.  Remember that not all players c-bet, so when he doesnt thats in i open fold QQ and give up??? Already £7 pot at NL30 dont wanna give hom a free card if he calls with AK, K2, A2 and all other yuck calls then good luck to him but when turn is a brick im moving to all-in city next to shovesville. This bad? Of cousre he always has AA,KK,1010 here?!
Posted by sighcall

if you want to build the pot so much do it pre flop. it doesnt make sense to take a disguised line pre flop if you're just going to go firing heavily into this flop.  anything that beats you still calls.  anything you beat will mostly fold.  all that happens is you take down a smaller pot when you're ahead and build a bigger pot when you're behind.

sighcall

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

In Response to Re: Worst turn card : if you want to build the pot so much do it pre flop. it doesnt make sense to take a disguised line pre flop if you're just going to go firing heavily into this flop.  anything that beats you still calls.  anything you beat will mostly fold.  all that happens is you take down a smaller pot when you're ahead and build a bigger pot when you're behind.
Posted by huuuuume

good point...hadnt thourght of it like that.

I just think that he still cass with all hands with a ten in. Also I keep JJ playing wheras a 4 bet pre probably would scare that off. 

IDONKCALLU

thats being result orientated we didnt know king was coming on the turn did we the right play is to bet flop just a tad to big this isnt a wet flop not co -ordinated its  a dream flop so y not bet smaller for value is a horrible turn card i think as ak  k 10 k j got there 

percival09

donk do you ever listen to anyones comment or do you just remain in your own little world? 

sighcall

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

donk do you ever listen to anyones comment or do you just remain in your own little world? 
Posted by percival09

Yes of course or I wount bother posting here.

Just only person who has clearly explained why they would check is huuuuuuuuuuuume.

You say you check to keep worse hands in but seem to be missing the point that these worse hands could hit. The only wose hand i want to hit is a J as the ten has already hit and A,K would put me behind. £7 is a nice pot to take if he decideds to fold, also u assume that everyone c-bets?

Also some people say i should bet so confusing me....

percival09

huh? I was talking to donk.. as in IDCU.

I haven't explained myself? lol ok.

a villain 3bets pre flop, we flat with qq, this is a passive line and since youve taken this line you must be v.wary of what he's 3 betting with, if not, you shouldve 4b imo. On the flop he checks a dry flop, now what's he checking that with? First, lets think of his 3b range.. AK/AQ/ perhaps AJ/ KK/AA/QQ/JJ/1010 maybe hands like JQ/J10/Q10 ... ok. So a dry flop, I think like 10 10 6 or w.e... villain checks. What's he checking with? Surely he'd cbet out of position if he's missed to try and take the pot down? checking oop with a hand that misses is pretty bad imo and is unlikely, perhaps AK/AQ but still, I think it's a cbet. More than likely I think he's checking 1010/AA. 

once he does check and its on you, youre betting aimlessly because you have no idea where youre at. Unknown villain has just checked on a super dry board. Check for pot control and to see what he does on the turn. If you check and villain leads the turn I then flat the turn. As played you bet too big, you built the pot unnecesserily and ouve made it harder to fold your hand. What do you do if villain raises you? What do you do if villain sticks around on the turn? I think I more than explained myself in earlier posts. and just to say again I was referring to IDCU when I said donk because it's in his name and is what I call him, nothing offensive to anybody. 

percival09

Of course they could  hit, that happens in poker.. but you need to check for pot contol, you have no idea why youre betting on the flop. Is it for information? Is it for value? Is it a bluff? You have no idea. 

chrispip

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

In Response to Re: Worst turn card : Yes of course or I wount bother posting here. Just only person who has clearly explained why they would check is huuuuuuuuuuuume. You say you check to keep worse hands in but seem to be missing the point that these worse hands could hit. The only wose hand i want to hit is a J as the ten has already hit and A,K would put me behind. £7 is a nice pot to take if he decideds to fold, also u assume that everyone c-bets? Also some people say i should bet so confusing me....
Posted by sighcall

Think the lemon is addressing IDCU,not you.

chrispip

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

In Response to Re: Worst turn card : Think the lemon is addressing IDCU,not you.
Posted by chrispip

Too late,again

percival09

Being addressed as a lemon is pretty cool

IDONKCALLU

live in my own world best way can only blame yaself then

IDONKCALLU

well i think u are lemon good choice of avatar 

sighcall

In Response to Re: Worst turn card:

huh? I was talking to donk.. as in IDCU. I haven't explained myself? lol ok. a villain 3bets pre flop, we flat with qq, this is a passive line and since youve taken this line you must be v.wary of what he's 3 betting with, if not, you shouldve 4b imo. On the flop he checks a dry flop, now what's he checking that with? First, lets think of his 3b range.. AK/AQ/ perhaps AJ/ KK/AA/QQ/JJ/1010 maybe hands like JQ/J10/Q10 ... ok. So a dry flop, I think like 10 10 6 or w.e... villain checks. What's he checking with? Surely he'd cbet out of position if he's missed to try and take the pot down? checking oop with a hand that misses is pretty bad imo and is unlikely, perhaps AK/AQ but still, I think it's a cbet. More than likely I think he's checking 1010/AA.  once he does check and its on you, youre betting aimlessly because you have no idea where youre at. Unknown villain has just checked on a super dry board. Check for pot control and to see what he does on the turn. If you check and villain leads the turn I then flat the turn. As played you bet too big, you built the pot unnecesserily and ouve made it harder to fold your hand. What do you do if villain raises you? What do you do if villain sticks around on the turn? I think I more than explained myself in earlier posts. and just to say again I was referring to IDCU when I said donk because it's in his name and is what I call him, nothing offensive to anybody. 
Posted by percival09

Thourght u were calling me a donk, lol. I understand what you are saying. Basically that betting achives nothing as only better hands call/rasise.

My thourghts are that 4-Betting pre means that lots of hands will fold. Basically anything except AA,KK,AK. If I 4_bet and he shoves I think it is a really hard fold and all that I am liking is a fold to collect £3 or a call to hope I dont see an A or K. 

My bet on the flop is for value. By not 4-betting pre-flop I keep all pairs of tens etc JJ in his range. Now if I bet and he shoves I either loose full stack as he has AA,KK - which I would have done by 4 betting pre. Although now he could shove with any ten or JJ and instead of winning £3 pre flop from these hands I now win his ful stack. The only hadn that beats me now that I had beat pre is 1010 which is unlikely.

Also not accounting for the ties he calls with oerpairs or makes bluff shoves thinking Im betting as a bluff. 

percival09

haha no. I wouldn't do that, unless you were one, ofc. 

Yeah I understand your thoughts pre, but I'm not sure if it's the right line.. I know you think you were playing tight so if you 4b it narrows down your range too much, but you havent posted much about villain so he might be awful and might not have been paying attention to you at all. But I do understand your thoughts, but still think checking is best for the reasons above. But betting isnt the worst play at all, I'm just explaining what I'd do and why