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mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot
I posted this hand in my thread + here
Not sure about this hand, is pre ok - think I should go more
I got 17bb behind - 12bb effective roughly :S - last 30 or 40 or something - deepish -
Too much to get it in with TPTK versus a donk pot size -
I thought about a fold then called last minute as the time bar started to end
Last thoughts were TPGK or draw - K9/Q9/109 - meh !
oppo seemed happy about their hand, they ain't folding, but am I happy enough about mine versus what is a very strong lead
But I haven't been opening much so it's not like oppo getting annoyed with me is it )
What you guys think, if I lose I am 6bb - ez shove/fold poker but mmm 12bb at risk
gotta say no real reads on this oppo, I not been opening a huge amount - oppo hasn't seem to be defending
To be honest I was playing a few cash tables, so I wasn't paying that much attention at this stage
)
Not sure about this hand, is pre ok - think I should go more
I got 17bb behind - 12bb effective roughly :S - last 30 or 40 or something - deepish -
Too much to get it in with TPTK versus a donk pot size -
I thought about a fold then called last minute as the time bar started to end
Last thoughts were TPGK or draw - K9/Q9/109 - meh !
oppo seemed happy about their hand, they ain't folding, but am I happy enough about mine versus what is a very strong lead
But I haven't been opening much so it's not like oppo getting annoyed with me is it )
What you guys think, if I lose I am 6bb - ez shove/fold poker but mmm 12bb at risk
gotta say no real reads on this oppo, I not been opening a huge amount - oppo hasn't seem to be defending
To be honest I was playing a few cash tables, so I wasn't paying that much attention at this stage
)| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| splend | Big blind | 800.00 | 800.00 | 12237.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| vegasman | Fold | ||||
| rancid | Raise | 1745.00 | 2545.00 | 14390.00 | |
| Clackett | Fold | ||||
| ChirpyChip | Fold | ||||
| splend | Call | 945.00 | 3490.00 | 11292.50 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| splend | Bet | 4000.00 | 7490.00 | 7292.50 | |
| rancid | |||||
Comments
made me laugh )
something like that , TP - draw mmmm FU with ya donk bet - take that !!!!!!!!
I agree with grantorino that post flop you have to jam, villain has any pair or weakish FD, prob would CR any good hand.
I fold pre (i do note your 5 handed). Reasons are 1) you've 20 BB, find better spots, better position, 2) PFR is too small, any larger wastes chips if called with a hand that has low potential and could well end if trouble (ie TP wk K)
3) you price the BB in with almost any playable hand, 4) youve opened the door for a re-steal by the 10-15BB stacks.
So we only raising with hands we happy getting all in pre flop with 40 players remaining ?
What hands are you happy getting it in pre flop and also raising with - 3% ?
So sit tight wait for a hand, no point in blind stealing and picking up 1200 ?
Sorry at what size stack do you try and pick up chips in a MTT, 30bb + ?
Maybe this is why SKY needs antes )
to suggest that sky need antes to help erradicate tight play by poeple like specifically me is ridiculous & rude.
I answered YOUR query with my opinion. I certainly am not going to detail my raising standards, who how and why i target my blind steals. Play some £11 SnG and find out.
Not being rude, just saying that part of MTT survival is not just about raising with hands you want to get it in with - we have to extract some chips and build a stack
Your thinking works fine in a SNG, but imo not in a fast paced MTT
Antes would force action, therefore more players have to get involved
At the moment people just wait around for hands, that's all I am saying
take care
as for antes i have no opinion, and for the mid-late tourney strategy, i would say that in mid pos, A9o (19th percentile?) is a trouble hand. If anyone raises you have to fold, and personally with a call and an A high flop is awful-get it in and hope?
So you had it good with tp tk & action.
Your position is very much like an average SNG though. 5 handed, 20-10BB per player/effective stack maybe 10-15BB relative to you. the time to chip up has past(?) and any PFR should be met with push/fold??
maybe it's good if people play tight late on )
Think we have very opposing views on how we should play after the bubble has burst and we playing in the money to hit FT.
If we only played hands we wanted to get it in with, our game would be pretty transparent and every tourney would be a contest of who can cooler people more than they get coolered themselves.
As you say, most people should be shove/folding, but the number of hands they are folding massively outweigh the number of hands they are shoving, so when there's a load of free chips in the middle every hand, keep taking them until someone starts fighting back. Obviously each BB is worth more when stacks are shallow and we wanna be picking them up where we can.
snap call turn shove
yeah I thought about this, guess oppo will shove turn with all worse 9's + bluffs if they donk like this
FWIW -I shoved oppo shows 2 pr 64o gg nn wp sir !
Kinda proves how easy it is to raise pre small and c bet verus these oppo's and mount chips )
This time oppo got lucky meh - o I didn't improve
I give very little credit to these flop donk leads, if he's flopped better than you he's checking back. You have the best hand 90%+ of the time here, I push on the flop, he'll probably call with a draw or weaker made hand.
Edit - just read the replies and saw the result, that's a useful read that goes in my notes for next time, his play isn't optimal, let's you get away from a lot of your opening range
To provide balance are we not ever leading these flops when we hit big as well as when we are drawing?
Let the preflop raiser make a c-bet when you've hit, and when you haven't save the chips and fold. Alot of play in shallow stack MTTs near the end is very standard.
However if we're deep i would personally lead a flopped 2 pair hand quite often
On this hand in particular, rancid's opponent has hit a miracle flop and leads out. Now imagine that rancid was playing AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, etc... rancid folds and his opponent has gained no value at all from his extremely lucky flopped two-pair. When he leads out he needs rancid to also have some sort of hand and he's got super-lucky again that rancid has top-pair. In most circumstances leading out means this player loses value.
On the other hand, if he checks the flop, rancid is almost certain to c-bet whether he's hit or not. That's virtually automatic value.
This donk-bet is made as though it wants rancid to fold because such a huge majority of his range is going to fold. His donk-bet is making it easy for rancid and actually will save rancid the c-bet.
This means a donk-lead with strong hands is especially bad against players who have a wide pre-flop raising range. Against players with a tight pre-flop range, it's also likely to be a losing play in the long-run. Yes, if they've got AA or KK, they'll pay you there full stack when you donk-bet at them, but that's likely to happen when you check to allow them to c-bet anyway. However if they have AK or AQ, then you again lose that value from the c-bet.
You don't get many experienced players advocating a donk-lead very often. The simple reason for this is that most of the time against most opponents a donk-bet is a losing play. The only occasions when donk-bets can be defended is when there is a huge amount of meta-game between the two players. For example; I have done it in the past because I have seen a player habitually raising or even shoving over other players' donk-bets. That's a very specific situation, though, and isn't something you can prescribe as "good play" without those specific reads.
On the other hand, when we see a free flop from the big blind and flop two-pair, leading out can certainly be a good idea. The benefits of that are a whole different story. This isn't donk-betting because in a limped pot there is no pre-flop aggressor.
If you feel there's a flaw in this argument, I'm eager to hear your point of view.
You don't have to balance this deep in MTT - ever really )
donking 2 pr versus against a pre flop raiser this deep is super bad
only time you ever donk is if you have super tight reads on oppo opening range and know they have a hand - but the majoority of the time is just super bad -
If he has nothing we get one bet out of him when we check but most likely he shuts down once we call/raise.
If he checks back or we just call his c bet we allow him to catch up.
We're also not narrowing his range down at all.
A flopped 2 pair here is highly likely to be ahead but when the turn comes we are most likely going to be a long way from having the nuts and from there on we are just guessing?
Bet when we're winning/get full value for our hand?
This is all just debating and totally hypothetical as i wouldn't be in this hand as the big blind and so it's probably a poor example i'm giving.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this specific hand that checking would be best but on a lot of flops that are more likely to have hit my opponents hand then i do believe that bet/bet/bet could extract the most value.
I don't think it could be classed as being 'super bad'
But if you mean from oppo's point of view and how oppo should play when flopping 2 pr with the lead
Thats another question...
If you flop two pair and your fist to act on the flop versus a pre flop raiser this deep on any board, why lead ?
Do you get folds more or get calls/raises more
to give our oppo a pre flop raising range is cruicial in if we decide to lead, lets say you know oppo open 4x with JJ+ only -
then leading may be better as oppo is more likely to call or shove - if you c/r versus overpairs then your playing pretty much face up but on wet boards it could look like a draw
But then you have to factor in your perceived pre flop calling range, what does oppo think I call pre and lead flop with or c/r with
if we c/r a wet flop then how does this look to your oppo ?
How often does the pre flop raiser c bet ?
Not every situation is the same but the best thing to do the majority of the time is to check, let oppo c bet - call again - call turn - oppo should be commited so shove river
you could advocate c/r this flop if we were deeper, but that fact we are not - we should NOT be worried about what oppo has
WE HAVE TWO PAIRS
2 pr is just massive this deep and you can't just say o oppo may have a draw so I bet, it's totaly negative poker
Leading out when you have no idea on oppo range or hand is nonsense, your going to see so many folds when checking will get you so many more chipets
readless = check
I am rabbling a bit bye bye
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