call or fold??

waller02

this hand is from early stages in tonights 5K rebuy

no reads on first villain but the guy who shoves had been aggro bordering on being a maniac!!

it is a rebuy but I tend not rebuy and just have the addon if i get that far....so do i call???

DEVIANTSD	Small blind		20.00	20.00	1275.00
waller02	Big blind		40.00	60.00	4705.00
	Your hole cards	7 6
1	Raise		160.00	220.00	3750.00
THEROCK573	Fold
coolRmike	Call		160.00	380.00	2345.00
2	Call		160.00	540.00	5527.50
DEVIANTSD	Fold
waller02	Call		120.00	660.00	4585.00
Flop
		4 2 5
waller02	Check
1	Bet		660.00	1320.00	3090.00
coolRmike	Fold
2	All-in		5527.50	6847.50	0.00
waller02	???

Lambert180

I fold, you don't know how many of your outs are clean and I just don't think it's +EV

The reshove may be a bigger flush draw where you'd be drawing to just the 3s and 8s and even if you hit them, still have to dodge clubs.

IDONKCALLU

do ya feel lucky well do ya well do ya depends if ya in a gambling mood or not if so then yeah id call 

Lambert180

Please don't make your decisions of whether you feel 'gambly' or not...assuming you want to win at poker

percival09

I'd snap in a usual f/o on sky but i think folding has some merits here. 

poss that villain is on fd too which obv wipes a lot of your outs out, and if youre not gonna rebuy I prob sigh. I know I definitely call in play though so w.e.

mj8bs

if Im rebuying, then Im 100% calling. TBH even if im not, Im still calling. If i run into a bigger FD then so be it. Ive got a fair inckling on who villain 2 might be (having possibly railed your table earlier) and if its who i think it is, then Im 100% call

KKrippler

I can never fold.

Your playing a tourney, your going to have to chip up to win/cash, so why fold here.

Lambert180

Just cos it's a tourney doesn't mean we have to take massive gambles tho surely?

He is 100BB+ deep, and is being asked to commit his tourney life having committed practically nothing when he HAS to hit, and 9 of his outs might be dead, so would be drawing pretty thin trying to hit one of his straight outs that isn't a club.

1267

Don't think i can ever fold here. i Kinda want to, but theres just no way i am. 

But i do love a gamble !

grantorino

If its a bigger fd he still has a ton of outs. Call, rebuy have fun

rancid

never folding, REBUY !

OPPO probbaly scared of the draws and just doesn't know how to play )

waller02

Ok so the general opinion is that I should have called, especially with it being a rebuy. I have said that I prefer to take the addon later on and to do this and maintain good br management I cannot rebuy as well (so prob shouldnt be playing in the first place then?)

So, I did fold and it was the correct fold in this instance (although by the sounds of it would be -ev in the long run??)

villain 1 had KK and villain 2 had the nut flush draw so my flush draw was no good. I would have missed my remaining outs and the kings held.

I made it to the addon period with a healthy stack but ended up donking off with 2 poor calls later on (so it seems I fold when I should call and call when I should fold.......not a good mix!!!!)

rancid

If it's a rebuy + add on then you normally have to fork out £33 to have a chance me thinks

FWIW if you can't rebuy, fold is ok - but whats the point in playing 67s if your going to fold when you hit the best flop for your hand

unknown_username

Call!

waller02

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

If it's a rebuy + add on then you normally have to fork out £33 to have a chance me thinks FWIW if you can't rebuy, fold is ok - but whats the point in playing 67s if your going to fold when you hit the best flop for your hand
Posted by rancid

That is a very good point, and i was waiting for someone to mention that. But with a strong bet and then the shove it was hard to know if my flush draw would be any good.....i don't know what the original c-better is going to do so could potentially be in a 3 way pot, against one villain i'm calling all day....having seen everybody's comments tho i guess i made a poor fold even though i would have lost.

Lambert180

I'm not so sure Waller. Notice how alot of people have said 'I can never fold' as appose to 'you should fold'. Sounds alot like people think it's a fold but just wouldn't do it in-game.

@ Grantorino - he doesn't have loads of outs if they have a bigger FD, he only has 4 x 3s and 4 x 8s, except 2 of these cards are clubs, so he's down to 6 outs, assuming that hitting a 6 or 7 isn't going to take us ahead (2nd villian can have us beat).

So he's calling his full 4585 to win 5923 ...possibly 9013 if he can be sure player 1 comes along too. And I've gone and worked it all out in disagreement and by doing the figures, think I may have proved myself wrong lol... not sure, but it seems pretty close

percival09

if youre set on not rebuying at all then fold. If you can rebuy call. If you can't rebuy don't play the mtt in the first place. Imo.

and if I decided to play this mtt knowing that I'm definitely not rebuying, I probably wouldn't play this hand pre because a lot of its equity comes from draws so... doesnt make much sense. 

waller02

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

if youre set on not rebuying at all then fold. If you can rebuy call. If you can't rebuy don't play the mtt in the first place. Imo. and if I decided to play this mtt knowing that I'm definitely not rebuying, I probably wouldn't play this hand pre because a lot of its equity comes from draws so... doesnt make much sense. 
Posted by percival09

yeah fair point, i play this every week though as it has one of the best structures on here. I never rebuy but ALWAYS take the addon when i get that far but i suppose if i knew i was rebuying then it would be a call.

I guess if the fact I'm not rebuying is affecting a decision then I shouldnt be playing....dunno. I don't think the call is as clear cut as people are making out though, with 3 people in the hand there is no gty that my flush draw is good, which does just leave me with 6 outs.......

BorinLoner

I don't think it's a call, for what it's worth.

Oppo 1's hand is basically face up when he c-bets so big into so many players, meaning you can be fairly sure he's going to call. That basically leaves your outs dependent on opponent 2's range. If there was a high card on this board I'd say it's more of a call but, on this board, so much of his range for shoving is going to be a flush-draw that I think it's a fold.

I'd fold. I assume the plan was to check-raise the flop and look to get it in but there's a world of difference between that and check-calling all-in. Calling off your stack on a potentially weak draw? Not for me. Look for better spots to get the double-up. Since it's a rebuy you'll probably find them.

I do sometimes play rebuys without intending to take a rebuy, btw. I think it's a legitimate way to play them with the added value of all the other players taking rebuys... Ideally I wouldn't play many hands at all, though with these pot-odds and a hand like this, I might call from the Big Blind too. I don't think you did anything wrong in the hand to be honest.

percival09

but yeah my advice is generally for someone who is quite serious with their bankroll, don't take it so literally - I play mtts that I probably shouldn't all the time. Recreational players ftw. If you wanna play a rebuy mtt without using a rebuy/addon w.e do it.. 

IDONKCALLU

resons i would call its a big field so need luck to run deep in any mtt with a big field the chances are like most u dnt cash so why not take a gamble if u win nice then get a add on for 4 k in good shape for a deep run like i said thats the reason im making the call mtts are really high variance altho i do ok at them u still need a bit of run good and i think this was that moment what do i know 

waller02

@ borinloner, yeah i was check raising until the the shove....its not as if i instafolded, in fact i got timed out whilst still undecided as to what to do. I def think its a lot tougher spot than some people are making out.

@percival...my br isnt in the 1000's but i def take it seriously as far as brm goes. I know ppl recommend entering with 1 rebuy and the addon in mind but I just like playing this mtt because of the structure. Besides most of the time when I do get busted in the rebuy period the blinds are around 75/150 and i'd rather just leave it than rebuy for 13 bigs.......like you say each to their own

Thanks for the comments guys........although still not sure if my fold was correct......lol the beauty of poker!

waller02

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

resons i would call its a big field so need luck to run deep in any mtt with a big field the chances are like most u dnt cash so why not take a gamble if u win nice then get a add on for 4 k in good shape for a deep run like i said thats the reason im making the call mtts are really high variance altho i do ok at them u still need a bit of run good and i think this was that moment what do i know 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

yeah but i can fold and still get to the addon in good shape.....I did get to the addon with 6k and topped up to 10k, however I made 2 poor calls towards the later stages lol

This hand did bug me though.....one of those hands where a time bank would have been nice, well for a nit like me anyway!

IDONKCALLU

yeah timebank would be useful have it on most sites 15 seconds far to short to make a decision i would make the call coz im a gambler go ftw each to there own tho i can see why people would lay id down as lambert pointed out u could be dead to 8 outs plus 6 or 7 if there live if guy has higher flush draw against 2 pair or a set tho pretty much a flip i believe 

DOHHHHHHH

Dunno if people who say gamble and rebuy realise, or if it even matters, but we have 2.5x starting stack at the start of the hand.....

So it would take a double rebuy and a sizeable pot to get back to 5k....

Lambert180

Donk, you do well in MTTs but IMO this is pretty terrible advice, you always advocate 'just having a gamble' way too much. Sometimes we will be put in spots where it's probably the better option to gamble than to fold, but this isn't one of them IMO.

He's started the hand with 117xBB and has so far invested 3 of them. Now he's being asked to put the other 114xBB in, when he could easily have his FD crushed and be drawing pretty thin.

Just seems like literally gambling, just hoping to try and treble up when you could pick up chips in much better ways. My workings before reckon he's calling 4500 to win 9000 roughly. If anyone has poker stove installed, be interested if they could put some ranges in for villian 1 + 2 and see how we do, I suspect it's close but a fold.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

yeah timebank would be useful have it on most sites 15 seconds far to short to make a decision i would make the call coz im a gambler go ftw each to there own tho i can see why people would lay id down as lambert pointed out u could be dead to 8 outs plus 6 or 7 if there live if guy has higher flush draw against 2 pair or a set tho pretty much a flip i believe 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

No where near a flip.

percival09

I was gonna put ranges in before but both could have so many hands so I gave up. 

tbf all idcu is saying is he'd take the gamble. He's not necesserily saying he'd recommend it. 

IDONKCALLU

+ 1  to percival its what i would do 

I am sure a certain some 1 from sky poker a very good reg has said he would take gambles on early stages in tourneys aswell and hes 1 of the best mtt players on this site 

rancid

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

Dunno if people who say gamble and rebuy realise, or if it even matters, but we have 2.5x starting stack at the start of the hand..... So it would take a double rebuy and a sizeable pot to get back to 5k....
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

At least someone is awake, didn't even see that )

good argument for a fold but they could both still not have our FD dead, if 10,000 makes you top five - probbaly worth the call

SUPERSNEDD

In Response to Re: call or fold??:

Donk, you do well in MTTs but IMO this is pretty terrible advice, you always advocate 'just having a gamble' way too much. Sometimes we will be put in spots where it's probably the better option to gamble than to fold, but this isn't one of them IMO. He's started the hand with 117xBB and has so far invested 3 of them. Now he's being asked to put the other 114xBB in, when he could easily have his FD crushed and be drawing pretty thin. Just seems like literally gambling, just hoping to try and treble up when you could pick up chips in much better ways. My workings before reckon he's calling 4500 to win 9000 roughly. If anyone has poker stove installed, be interested if they could put some ranges in for villian 1 + 2 and see how we do, I suspect it's close but a fold.
Posted by Lambert180

If their hands were face up on this board

7c6c is 23.4%
KKo, KKs is 39.8%
AXc is 36.4%

If you take away the AXc, 7c6c becomes a favourite (ie both have over pairs with no clubs)