Was I right to lay this down

JockBMW

Bubble of a £10 DYM.  Persephers is a very good DYM specialist and knows what he is doing 

Hand History #565640570 (10:23 20/09/2012)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancepersephersSmall blind 75.0075.004577.50JockBMWBig blind 150.00225.003520.00 Your hole cardsA3   xpussycatxFold    safehands0Call 150.00375.001060.00SMITHY100Fold    persephersCall 75.00450.004502.50JockBMWCheck    Flop  A10A   persephersBet 150.00600.004352.50JockBMWCall 150.00750.003370.00safehands0Fold    Turn  4   persephersBet 250.001000.004102.50JockBMWFold    persephersMuck    persephersWin 750.00 4852.50persephersReturn 250.000.005102.5

DOHHHHHHH

How bad would a ship pre be?

Peresphers is never going to call you unless he misclicks. 

Other guy has 1k and probably a weak range.

Maybe A3s isn't strong enough? What would be the bottom of your shoving range pre flop in this spot? Just interested....A8s or something?

I'd guess that folding turn is probably the correct thing to do if he's good? He's not value betting worse, and he's never bluffing when he leads this flop in a limped pot. 

gf imo. as always, I dnt play these though so probably way off the mark.

Interested to hear your thoughts on the pre flop spot? How light can we shove?

JockBMW

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

How bad would a ship pre be? Peresphers is never going to call you unless he misclicks.  Other guy has 1k and probably a weak range. Maybe A3s isn't strong enough? What would be the bottom of your shoving range pre flop in this spot? Just interested....A8s or something? I'd guess that folding turn is probably the correct thing to do if he's good? He's not value betting worse, and he's never bluffing when he leads this flop in a limped pot.  gf imo. as always, I dnt play these though so probably way off the mark. Interested to hear your thoughts on the pre flop spot? How light can we shove?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Hi JJ

Thanks for the feed back.  To be honest the only hands I am shoving here are AA and KK.  It's the bubble I have a very large stack and I am not prepared to get it in with the only player at the table who can knock me out. To be honest I lost interest in the hand the minute the short stack folded 

If the big stack was not in the hand and it was just me and the short stack my shoving range would be A 10 + KJ +  and 99 +  That's a bit tight but doubling up the shart stack at this stage is not a desierable outcome 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Hi JJ Thanks for the feed back.  To be honest the only hands I am shoving here are AA and KK.  It's the bubble I have a very large stack and I am not prepared to get it in with the only player at the table who can knock me out. To be honest I lost interest in the hand the minute the short stack folded  If the big stack was not in the hand and it was just me and the short stack my shoving range would be A 10 + KJ +  and 99 +  That's a bit tight but doubling up the shart stack at this stage is not a desierable outcome 
Posted by JockBMW

When I first looked at the hand I'd totally ignore that the sb (bigstack) has made up from the small blind, especially as you say he's an experienced capable dym player.....

I don't think he's ever limping with a hand he will call a shove from you with? Do you agree?

If so, then we can disregard him and shove the same range that we would shove had he folded?

Again, I don't play these but I'd suggest looking into shoving your given range of A 10 + KJ +  and 99 + in this spot as well as you would if the sb had folded.

Be interested to see what JC/Shanx/other dymers that post think about this....

Ofc if your read on the sb is dodgy or you aren't sure then it's probably un-neccesserily risky. If he is a solid player that knows what he's doing I think we can pretend he isn't there. 

I'll prob get cained now! lol. 

..................................................

suzy666

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Hi JJ Thanks for the feed back.  To be honest the only hands I am shoving here are AA and KK.  It's the bubble I have a very large stack and I am not prepared to get it in with the only player at the table who can knock me out. To be honest I lost interest in the hand the minute the short stack folded  If the big stack was not in the hand and it was just me and the short stack my shoving range would be A 10 + KJ +  and 99 +  That's a bit tight but doubling up the shart stack at this stage is not a desierable outcome 
Posted by JockBMW

Lots of interesting points in this post. first the hand, there is a growing trend of limp donk bet in SB vs BB situtions-has villain been doing this? I would say his range OTF is Ax, TXc, any pp and clubs-he expects you to fold without an A or a T-why not raise-take it down / find out where you stand (say 500)-you can afford a stack hit. his 1x donk is meaningless-probably clubs, wouldnt he bet an A bigger to protect against the FD?

as for the turn-his clubs, possible Ax have you beat, 10Xc may barrel but hes worried about your A, and PP check- so i fold

In response to Dohh: Raising AI is suicide, how would villain play AA-limp it? Raising Ai is all risk with very little reward given the table situation and a very likely cash

NColley

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Lots of interesting points in this post. first the hand, there is a growing trend of limp donk bet in SB vs BB situtions-has villain been doing this? I would say his range OTF is Ax, TXc, any pp and clubs-he expects you to fold without an A or a T- why not raise-take it down / find out where you stand (say 500) -you can afford a stack hit. his 1x donk is meaningless-probably clubs, wouldnt he bet an A bigger to protect against the FD? as for the turn-his clubs, possible Ax have you beat, 10Xc may barrel but hes worried about your A, and PP check- so i fold In response to Dohh: Raising AI is suicide, how would villain play AA-limp it? Raising Ai is all risk with very little reward given the table situation and a very likely cash
Posted by suzy666

you can't donk bet a limped pot.. its just a lead out.

anyway the hand itself, prob flat flop hope shorty jams and big stack folds, so thats fine.

turn yea, no point sticking about any longer c/f

unknown_username

 Short stack IS an important factor here though a raise to 450 (as u haven't learned anything) on the flop is well with your means and keeps you in top two and will put the difficult decision to your opponent. If he folds you can go into ch/fold mode. I feel like you have the stack size to make this move.

percival09

@profman but that would be raising for information and that is a widely accepted bad play nowadays

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

@profman but that would be raising for information and that is a widely accepted bad play nowadays
Posted by percival09

Lets call it pressurising your opponent shall we P? HA.....I almost used that banned phrase "to know where you're at" but thought i may be banned from the site....cheers

Padzz77

Isnt it certain that almost any hand good enough to bet on flop will bet again after a call on the flop?   

Maybe a pocket pair, 99 or lower might check.  But any Ace, any (large) club, any 10 must bet, no?

Even with the club on the turn, why would he check without a flush?  If you bet, he'd have to fold.

Why not min raise on the flop?

With no Ace, he probably folds.  If he re-raises, you fold.  If he calls then bets turn or river, you fold.  (Only danger of this is if a 3 comes and you decide to call a big bet, and find out he has you crushed).

If you don't want to play it like that (ie encourage him to either fold or check it all the way to showdown), then why not fold on flop? 

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

Isnt it certain that almost any hand good enough to bet on flop will bet again after a call on the flop?    Maybe a pocket pair, 99 or lower might check.  But any Ace, any (large) club, any 10 must bet, no? Even with the club on the turn, why would he check without a flush?  If you bet, he'd have to fold. Why not min raise on the flop? With no Ace, he probably folds.  If he re-raises, you fold.  If he calls then bets turn or river, you fold.  (Only danger of this is if a 3 comes and you decide to call a big bet, and find out he has you crushed). If you don't want to play it like that (ie encourage him to either fold or check it all the way to showdown), then why not fold on flop? 
Posted by Padzz77

Just what i was thinking

percival09

Why would you m/r the flop? If he folds, he's letting go of everything that we beat and are ahead of and therefore losing value. If he re-raises it's possible he's on a fd or just outplaying us generally and making us fold the best hand. You should only raise for value or as a bluff and raise/folding w/ trip aces here is pretty awful imo

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

Why would you m/r the flop? If he folds, he's letting go of everything that we beat and are ahead of and therefore losing value. If he re-raises it's possible he's on a fd or just outplaying us generally and making us fold the best hand. You should only raise for value or as a bluff and raise/folding w/ trip aces here is pretty awful imo
Posted by percival09

Yes, if he folds it confirms that we were (almost certainly) ahead.  Is that necessarily a problem in a DYM when we're on the bubble and in a hand against the chip leader?

If he calls and checks it down, then he is probably ahead, but it costs us nothing more to find out.  

If he bets again, with a flush draw out there, and a possible full house, as well as 2 Aces on the flop, then it is extremely unlikely that we are ahead.  We can have peace of mind when we fold.

But - imho - if we simply call the flop and fold the turn, how do we know that he didnt have a 10, or JJ, QQ, KK, or just the King of Clubs?

And if we call the turn, then what do we do on the river if he bets again?  600, say?  If we give up on our trip Aces at that stage, we've spent more than if we min-raised the flop.  And if we call and lose, then we've lost our safeish chip stack.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Yes, if he folds it confirms that we were (almost certainly) ahead.  Is that necessarily a problem in a DYM when we're on the bubble and in a hand against the chip leader? If he calls and checks it down, then he is probably ahead, but it costs us nothing more to find out.   If he bets again, with a flush draw out there, and a possible full house, as well as 2 Aces on the flop, then it is extremely unlikely that we are ahead.  We can have peace of mind when we fold. But - imho - if we simply call the flop and fold the turn, how do we know that he didnt have a 10, or JJ, QQ, KK, or just the King of Clubs? And if we call the turn, then what do we do on the river if he bets again?  600, say?  If we give up on our trip Aces at that stage, we've spent more than if we min-raised the flop.  And if we call and lose, then we've lost our safeish chip stack.
Posted by Padzz77

Because he would raise JJ/QQ/KK pre flop to isolate the short stack.

He wouldn't semi bluff twice with just the K of clubs in a 3 way limped pot involving another big stack.

He wouldn't bet the 10 twice either. 

We know he's a competent dym player so we can make the above assumptions quite safely here. 

IDONKCALLU

i would call turn 250 of a 3k stack could house up here gotta be worth it i know its a dym every chip counts and opponent is a gd reg agreed as played a few times myself but surely its a call on turn 

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Because he would raise JJ/QQ/KK pre flop to isolate the short stack. He wouldn't semi bluff twice with just the K of clubs in a 3 way limped pot involving another big stack. He wouldn't bet the 10 twice either.  We know he's a competent dym player so we can make the above assumptions quite safely here. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Yeah, I think you're bound to be right about not having a large pair (although could have been trying to trap pre-flop, and slowed down when the Ace came).

I'm much less convinced that the large stack wouldnt have a couple of stabs at making the second stack fold.  He knows how difficult it would be for the second stack to come along, as demonstrated by the folding of trip Aces to a bet of one third of the pot.  

His flop bet doesnt necessarily show strength, as he could be pressuring the short stack with anything.  His turn bet is about 6% of his stack.  He doesnt necessarily have to have trips with a better kicker, a flush, or a full house to be willing to go to showdown with us at such a cheap price.

If he has a 10, it seems (to me) to make more sense for him to bet it, than to sit back and see what we will do.  He'd rather we went away now than get a free river.  He doesnt want to see J, Q, K on river and then a small bet from us if he has checked his 10 on turn and river.  Nor does he want to see a small bet from us on this turn card, if he has checked to us.

BTW, I am useless at DYMs so I probably play both stack sizes incorrectly.  But I have a slightly different question.  Let's say the call on the flop was definitely correct, because we didnt want to squeeze the shorty out of the hand.  If that's the case, then I have no problem folding the turn; I dont think that is too tight.

BUT what if, on the flop, the shorty called instead of folding.  Then persephers makes the same 250 bet.  Do we fold in that situation, or stay in the hand? 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

BUT what if, on the flop, the shorty called instead of folding.  Then persephers makes the same 250 bet.  Do we fold in that situation, or stay in the hand? 
Posted by Padzz77

It would be an even easier fold as P is now even less likely to be bluffing.

We can only beat a bluff.....

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : It would be an even easier fold as P is now even less likely to be bluffing. We can only beat a bluff.....
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Thanks.

I am definitely playing these all wrong.  

unknown_username

A good hand Jock which has certainly got a lot of interesting thoughts. One thing that does come out is that persephers for a small outlay has put you, Jock, to a difficult decisin which is what the game is about. After all he's only had to pay 1/2 BB to call so could have pp or suited connectors even suited i gap connectors. He sees a flop cheaply and decides to bet out to put you to the awkward decision.
I think that this is clever play and i see no reason why you shouldn't then reraise to reverse that test. You have the means. He shouldn't have pot odds for the flush draw and would only continue if he has AX unless he plays very trickily your raise will give you the answer you require. After all you can bet that he's got his eyes on that short stack too. So for me its raise the flop and get your answer at relatively little cost to your chances of success.
 

BorinLoner

First, a couple of disclaimers: I have not played a DYM or Double Or Nothing in years. I know nothing about JockBMW's or Persephers' play, apart from that which is written in this thread.

Now with that said; It seems to me that those people talking about raising against Persephers are missing the main issue in this hand and DYM play generally: If we have a big stack, we don't want to play against other big stacks.

In this hand, the only issue is the short stack. Both other players, if they are experienced DYM players, are playing only against him. The moment he folds the other two would generally expect to check it down against each other and should only continue betting with the nuts or near-nuts. This is because those two players do not need to build their stacks. As long as there are players at the table who are shorter than they are, they do not want to risk playing against someone who can bust them or make them short.

This means that when Persephers bets on the turn, after the shorty has folded, he should never have anything that JockBMW can beat. If Persephers is a very clued-up DYM player, he would never be putting chips into the pot here with a Ten or a draw because he would know that JockBMW would only continue in the hand against a big stack with a big hand. There is absolutely no need for either player to play against the other.

For this reason, even if people are wrong about Persephers and he is not such a good player, it is still the correct fold for JockBMW. Jock has little to gain from taking a chance on doubling-up here as long as other players are significantly shorter than him.

A point to make, though, is that the table seems to be five-handed so this is not the bubble. However, as long as one player at the table is limping for 150 out of a 1200 stack, we don't need to be getting ourselves in trouble against the other big stacks. We win the same payout if we finish third in chips as we do if we finish first.

It seems to me that Jock is absolutely correct to switch off once the shorty is out of the hand and snap-fold to any bet.

spurs_13

@borinloner - absolute sense for DYM play and I couldn't have put it any better

Glenelg

@Jock - I've NOT read the other posts (so as not to contaminate my answer!)  so apologies if some one has asked this before. You say it's the bubble?  Yet there's 5 players left? Anyway, U & Perseph seem to have circa 2 x thirds of the chips?  In a situation like this theres usually no reason to go H v H.  Having said this, I've come across quite a few situations where players like Perseph, who we know could just fold FTW, wants to totally dominate the table. Fcek knows why?  In situations like yours I can find a fold!  Let the shorties fight it out.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

First, a couple of disclaimers: I have not played a DYM or Double Or Nothing in years. I know nothing about JockBMW's or Persephers' play, apart from that which is written in this thread. Now with that said; It seems to me that those people talking about raising against Persephers are missing the main issue in this hand and DYM play generally: If we have a big stack, we don't want to play against other big stacks. In this hand, the only issue is the short stack. Both other players, if they are experienced DYM players, are playing only against him. The moment he folds the other two would generally expect to check it down against each other and should only continue betting with the nuts or near-nuts. This is because those two players do not need to build their stacks. As long as there are players at the table who are shorter than they are, they do not want to risk playing against someone who can bust them or make them short. This means that when Persephers bets on the turn, after the shorty has folded, he should never have anything that JockBMW can beat. If Persephers is a very clued-up DYM player, he would never be putting chips into the pot here with a Ten or a draw because he would know that JockBMW would only continue in the hand against a big stack with a big hand. There is absolutely no need for either player to play against the other. For this reason, even if people are wrong about Persephers and he is not such a good player, it is still the correct fold for JockBMW. Jock has little to gain from taking a chance on doubling-up here as long as other players are significantly shorter than him. A point to make, though, is that the table seems to be five-handed so this is not the bubble. However, as long as one player at the table is limping for 150 out of a 1200 stack, we don't need to be getting ourselves in trouble against the other big stacks. We win the same payout if we finish third in chips as we do if we finish first. It seems to me that Jock is absolutely correct to switch off once the shorty is out of the hand and snap-fold to any bet.
Posted by BorinLoner

Yeah, I agree that the top two stacks should not be going to war.

But I dont agree that betting 250 from that stack, in these circs, is evidence that the big stack is willing to go to war.

Folding is not necessarily "too tight".  It makes a lot of sense.  However, we are quite possibly folding the best hand.

Imho - nothing the big stack has done shows that he has a hand better than ours.  We have not invited him to get out of our way.  He has invited us to get out of his way, but with a bet size that wont hurt him if he needs to fold.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : Yeah, I agree that the top two stacks should not be going to war. But I dont agree that betting 250 from that stack, in these circs, is evidence that the big stack is willing to go to war. Folding is not necessarily "too tight".  It makes a lot of sense.  However, we are quite possibly folding the best hand. Imho - nothing the big stack has done shows that he has a hand better than ours.  We have not invited him to get out of our way.  He has invited us to get out of his way, but with a bet size that wont hurt him if he needs to fold.
Posted by Padzz77

The point is that it doesn't matter. He may have the big hand, he may not. We don't need to care. If he's bluffing us, let him have the pot.

The value of the chips in the middle is less than the value of the chips in our stack in DYM's. We can just fold to the money alot of the time with a big stack but if we get involved with this pot and put more chips in, we might not be able to fold to the money.

Even if we believe it's likely that we have the best hand, it doesn't mean that making a raise or call here would be correct.

The key way to think of it is:

If I raise or call here, the chances of me winning the hand are, let's say, 70%. However...

If I fold here, the chances of me making the money are, let's say, 80%.

As long as we have a big stack, the second number is going to be quite high. Even if the first number appears to make a play correct in a particular hand, it can be incorrect long-term strategy if the second number is higher. (Obviously those numbers are just examples and aren't calculated specifically for this hand in any way)

In this DYM, it seems very likely that Jock can simply fold to the money or at least to the bubble. If that's the case, then the chances of winning this hand have to be huge, virtually 100%, to make it correct to carry on.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : The point is that it doesn't matter. He may have the big hand, he may not. We don't need to care. If he's bluffing us, let him have the pot. The value of the chips in the middle is less than the value of the chips in our stack in DYM's. We can just fold to the money alot of the time with a big stack but if we get involved with this pot and put more chips in, we might not be able to fold to the money. Even if we believe it's likely that we have the best hand, it doesn't mean that making a raise or call here would be correct. The key way to think of it is: If I raise or call here, the chances of me winning the hand are, let's say, 70%. However... If I fold here, the chances of me making the money are, let's say, 80%. As long as we have a big stack, the second number is going to be quite high. Even if the first number appears to make a play correct in a particular hand, it can be incorrect long-term strategy if the second number is higher. (Obviously those numbers are just examples and aren't calculated specifically for this hand in any way) In this DYM, it seems very likely that Jock can simply fold to the money or at least to the bubble. If that's the case, then the chances of winning this hand have to be huge, virtually 100%, to make it correct to carry on.
Posted by BorinLoner

I agree with all the logic.

What I am less convinced of is that this bet is either a "bluff", or else better trips, full house or flush.

If the guy has (say) J10, then he bets like this.  If he has 77, then he bets like this.  For all he knows, he is ahead.  The fact that he doesnt want to go to war doesnt mean that he has to let us check it down to see if we can overtake him in the river.  That's the advantage he has as chip leader.

I'm not saying we have to call, or that it is too tight to fold.  But with about 3.4K, we cannot necessarily afford to fold every single time we're in a pot with the chip leader.  Others wont be doing that.  If they force him to fold in a situation like this, then we wont be second in chips for ever.

{As mentioned before, I am useless at DYMs. So maybe this is a situation where I need to tighten up a lot.}

GREGHOGG

I call the turn

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

I call the turn
Posted by GREGHOGG

See this Jock? Proof that folding is correct.

grantorino

Wtf is a good dym player leading the flop if he has Ax or better. There may be a reason but I don't get it

Not to sure why he is limping behind a shorty either 

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : See this Jock? Proof that folding is correct.
Posted by BorinLoner

I think a fold is bad because of the size of his turn bet.. indicates a weak 10 with maybe a club draw also.. cant see this being the nuts. we can always fold to a huge bet on the river innit

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : I think a fold is bad because of the size of his turn bet.. indicates a weak 10 with maybe a club draw also.. cant see this being the nuts. we can always fold to a huge bet on the river innit
Posted by GREGHOGG

I just don't see much need in getting involved. Though a full house seems unlikely, I don't think he'd bet with worse than an Ace or possibly a flush. I don't see why he'd bet against our stack with a Ten... even these tiny bets. Why would he need or want to, especially after we called on the flop? (Presuming he's a decent player)

Maybe he's using the whole DYM strategy against us, thinking we'll give up without the nuts. I don't care if he is doing that, though, I'm still only playing the shorter stacks. lol

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down:

In Response to Re: Was I right to lay this down : I just don't see much need in getting involved. Though a full house seems unlikely, I don't think he'd bet with worse than an Ace or possibly a flush. I don't see why he'd bet against our stack with a Ten... even these tiny bets. Why would he need or want to, especially after we called on the flop? (Presuming he's a decent player) Maybe he's using the whole DYM strategy against us, thinking we'll give up without the nuts. I don't care if he is doing that, though, I'm still only playing the shorter stacks. lol
Posted by BorinLoner

OK ive now scoped the guy and his graph is perfect at dyms at these stakes. He is prob milking us for value then in this spot annoyingly.  Still, as i am a giant plichard, even if i have seen his scope before the game, which i will have, i would call the turn just to get to a cheap showdown. We are in no immediate danger and it would be good to pick up a proper read.