gotta go for broke??

waller02

This hand is from the primo. The villain had been limping in throughout the game. He could have a set or a flush draw or even just trying to push me off with A8 (well within his limpin range).

What should my next move be? They say don't go broke in an unraised pot but I have to here don't I??

jedstone30	Small blind		125.00	125.00	1918.50
waller02	Big blind		250.00	375.00	6585.00
	Your hole cards	4 7
PussyCat16	Fold
x	Call		250.00	625.00	9816.00
karlluke	Fold
jedstone30	Fold
waller02	Check
Flop
		8 4 7
waller02	Bet		468.75	1093.75	6116.25
x	Raise		1000.00	2093.75	8816.00
waller02	???

Lambert180

This deep, I might just falt his raise, and see what happens on the turn. Always gonna be checking to him on the turn when I've flatted his raise, whether I house up or it comes a spade or whatever, so wait to see what he does on the turn.

BorinLoner

Yeah, I get it in. If he's got 78 or a set then that's unlucky. I think much more often he'd be holding a flush-draw or one-pair. There's enough in the middle to just 3-bet all-in here.

waller02

If I 3 bet then it should only be a shove? I ask because I did 3 bet but think my sizing was all wrong!

BorinLoner

Well, any decent sized 3-bet you make here is going to be at least a third of your stack. At that point you're just selling strength anyway and letting your opponent make an easy decision: If he's got the monster then he just gets it in, he folds most one-pairs and if he's on the flush-draw a small raise might be giving him the correct direct odds to call. 

At least if you shove you can look as though you might have a flush draw. You wouldn't 3-bet small on a draw, would you?

How much did you 3-bet?

I wouldn't like calling the flop-raise, btw. The reason would be the number of bad cards on the turn: Obviously an 8 would be a disaster but Spades, 5's, 6's, 9's, Tens, Jacks, Queens, Kings and Aces would all be bad cards for us. Some are going to fill draws for our opponent or make better two-pairs, given their pre-flop limping range, and others make it less likely that we get paid by any one-pair hands that our opponent could be raising on this flop.

waller02

In Response to Re: gotta go for broke??:

Well, any decent sized 3-bet you make here is going to be at least a third of your stack. At that point you're just selling strength anyway and letting your opponent make an easy decision: If he's got the monster then he just gets it in, he folds most one-pairs and if he's on the flush-draw a small raise might be giving him the correct direct odds to call.  At least if you shove you can look as though you might have a flush draw. You wouldn't 3-bet small on a draw, would you? How much did you 3-bet? I wouldn't like calling the flop-raise, btw. The reason would be the number of bad cards on the turn: Obviously an 8 would be a disaster but Spades, 5's, 6's, 9's, Tens, Jacks, Queens, Kings and Aces would all be bad cards for us. Some are going to fill draws for our opponent or make better two-pairs, given their pre-flop limping range, and others make it less likely that we get paid by any one-pair hands that our opponent could be raising on this flop.
Posted by BorinLoner

I have sent the hand to the show.....if they dont show it I will post the whole hand

percival09

I'm getting it in. 2p otf = sik

percival09

In Response to Re: gotta go for broke??:

This deep, I might just falt his raise, and see what happens on the turn. Always gonna be checking to him on the turn when I've flatted his raise, whether I house up or it comes a spade or whatever, so wait to see what he does on the turn.
Posted by Lambert180

hero has 26bb lol hardly deep

percival09

In Response to Re: gotta go for broke??:

If I 3 bet then it should only be a shove? I ask because I did 3 bet but think my sizing was all wrong!
Posted by waller02

Yh I 3b shove. 

waller02

doesnt look like they are gonna show it so here is the hand. my 3 bet sizing is bad????

jedstone30	Small blind		125.00	125.00	1918.50
waller02	Big blind		250.00	375.00	6585.00
	Your hole cards	4 7
PussyCat16	Fold
x	Call		250.00	625.00	9816.00
karlluke	Fold
jedstone30	Fold
waller02	Check
Flop
		8 4 7
waller02	Bet		468.75	1093.75	6116.25
x	Raise		1000.00	2093.75	8816.00
waller02	Raise		1843.75	3937.50	4272.50
x	All-in		8816.00	12753.50	0.00
waller02	All-in		4272.50	17026.00	0.00
x	Unmatched bet		3231.00	13795.00	3231.00
waller02	Show	4 7
x	Show	8 7
Turn
		3
River
		K
x	Win	Two Pairs, 8s and 7s	13795.00

mewillows

not a shove imo. 

whats he 5 bet jamming with in this situation? 

he limped pre, takes away most paint and pairs but leaves suited cards and connectors.

78, 56, 45 and flush draws are perfect for this kind of range.  Id personally fold his shove.

BorinLoner

As I said, I think it should be a 3-bet shove on the flop.

I certainly wouldn't be folding to the 4-bet though. Chances are he doesn't limp with big pairs or AK, I'd agree with that. I'd also say he's unlikely to limp with 47 or 48, so the hands that are beating us are going to be 88, 77, 44, 56 and 78. Of those, 44 and 77 are somewhat less likely because of our hand.

There's also the possibility that he's raising this flop with a pair and a flush draw or two overs with a flush draw. After they've raised the flop with any of those hands, they shouldn't be folding to your 3-bet. 

I would also hate the idea of 3-bet-folding the flop with two-pair. Here I think we have to call the 4-bet on the flop, though admittedly it feels like you're behind more often than you're ahead. The pot-odds just make it a call.

When the flop raise comes to you, because the pot is now 1/3 of your stack and your two-pair is likely to be best at this stage, while still being vulnerable, you should be shoving. The value of the pot is huge and part of the value of the shove is giving the flush-draw the wrong odds to call.

mewillows

i never saw stack sizes, so yeah ossible have to go with it even though its with gritted teeth.

Pipunch

so many people over think things. how often is 2 pair here gonna be winning? most of the time. not likely he's flopped bigger 2 pair (even though he did, we're thinking long term) and a straight/trips probably aren't that likely so shipping is fine long term

rancid

Hate these situations

don't bet flop, oppo folds a lot
flat or just fold flop raise

you have no idea where you are in this hand, that's the problem )
oppo is limping pre and now raising your flop lead, massive strength or bluff

either way flat, check turn see what happens - you can easily get away from this

but.....not bad to get it in on the flop if you think oppo will play one pr/draws this way -
I don't think they do but..... hey you have 2 prs )
hate going out on hands that you would never play in the first place :S

percival09

In Response to Re: gotta go for broke??:

Hate these situations don't bet flop, oppo folds a lot flat or just fold flop raise you have no idea where you are in this hand, that's the problem ) oppo is limping pre and now raising your flop lead, massive strength or bluff either way flat, check turn see what happens - you can easily get away from this but.....not bad to get it in on the flop if you think oppo will play one pr/draws this way - I don't think they do but..... hey you have 2 prs ) hate going out on hands that you would never play in the first place :S
Posted by rancid

what if villain checks behind? We're getting value from so much by betting

hero could donk off w/ tp .. fd, overpair, straight + pair. so much we own. wehave to get it in w/ our stack imo.