Is this a reraise on the river for value

IDONKCALLU

Played sj a few times a solid player may i add PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceSnapCrackSit out    neely0y0Small blind £0.10£0.10£22.07IDONKCALLUBig blind £0.20£0.30£50.92 Your hole cards55   JIM_LADFold    babyboy015Fold    SJspanky1Raise £0.80£1.10£49.50neely0y0Call £0.70£1.80£21.37IDONKCALLUCall £0.60£2.40£50.32Flop  5109   neely0y0Check    IDONKCALLUCheck    SJspanky1Check    Turn  Q   neely0y0Check    IDONKCALLUBet £1.60£4.00£48.72SJspanky1Call £1.60£5.60£47.90neely0y0Fold    River  Q   IDONKCALLUBet £3.60£9.20£45.12SJspanky1Raise £7.40£16.60£40.50

IDONKCALLU

could easily have 10s here when he raised pre or 99 but am i losing value if i dnt reraise the river 

if i did reraise what amount 

and am i beating anything if i reraised the river and get raised again not saying i raised just queestions i am putting out there

percival09

he's cbetting 99/1010 otf

the only hand that makes perfect sense and that is beating you imo is Q9. You'd think he'd cbet Q10. He'd cbet 99/1010. Possibly Q5s or something. Hands you beat QJ, QK, QA. 

You have v.good equity vs his range and I suspect you'll see QJ/QK/QA even JK more often than a house so yh I raise for vaaalllueeeeee. 

IDONKCALLU

what if i get reraised tho percival ?

percival09

Then I'm scared

IDONKCALLU

thats y i just flatted the raise on the river maybe i am losing value bit gutted when he turned over a q not sure if he would of called a raise to £20 or so like i said hes a solid player 

percival09

I think we could worry about that when/if it happens.. he'll turn over what he did so many times that you like HAVE to raise. and if he's a good player he's never 4betting with worse so youc ould probs lay it down. But by raising you're getting called by most of his range which you beat - you can lay it down to a 4b imo.

IDONKCALLU

yeah i know what ya saying percival but i dnt think hes calling my reraise on the river if i did make a raise to £20 or so is it worth the game to do this raise knowing i might not get paid of  or do the raise and if he jams on me hating life what i mean is  is it worth the risk as i dnt think hes calling when i do raise on river 

percival09

I think if you make it £16 he's calling with AQ definitely

rancid

no, i flat here

percival09

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

no, i flat here
Posted by rancid

what hands that beat us make sense?

NColley

raise

might even call if villian 4bets because villians line is f.o.s

lolufold7

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

no, i flat here
Posted by rancid

Flatting here is just not an option. It is a raise every day of the week. Yes ok you are deep, and 1 in maybe 20 times he turns over Q9 but everything else you crush. He cbets his sets on this board 100% of the time when it is this draw heavy (considering your note that he is a decent player) He will NEVER fold AQ, KQ, QJ, KJ when you make it £16. He can also have hands like Q8, Q7 if he is reasonably loose and raised on the button.

Just losing so much value in the long run here by flatting. Ok we will get stacked every now and again (very rarely) but it's so exploitable if we are folding in this spot even if he reraises river.

Just make it £18 and expect him to sigh call his QJ.

Edit: It is also a min reraise on the river which in general tends to be a weaker hand than if he made it £10.

percival09

It's that much of a clear v.spot you could consider shoving vs an opponent who will stack off w/ AQ, depends how he views u tho. 

rancid

Raising river just turns our hand face up so do we really think oppo calls with a Q )


Only reason to raise river is if we are peceived as a you know what, or you think oppo will call with worse

Don't think oppo calls with worse often enough and verus donk I think his line makes perfect sense )

plus I would really wanna see if oppo is bluffing me in this spot )

percival09

He definitely calls w/ worse often enough. IDCU bets the turn when a Q comes, and bets the river when a second Q comes. His hand is so under repped - he has a Q here, or a straight so many more times than a full house. Hero's hand here is SO OFTEN QJ/QK/QA so if hero 3bets he's always getting sigh called by QJ, definitely called by QK, and snap called by QA

LnarinOO

clearest 3bet ever..!! if udont ur a bum..!

AyrGraeme

If the effective stacks are 100 bb then there's an argument for reraising.  The fact you are 250 deep against a solid player I think another raise only gets called or shoved on by another house. 

A reraise is not a bad play here as you might get a call from K/Jor 8/J but you've got to fold if he shoves on ya cos that can only mean Q/10 or Q/9 - even 10s or 9s will probably only flat ya.

IDONKCALLU

mixed views thanks guys the reason i didnt re raise as i said to percival i cant see sj calling me so for me its a gamble to reraise coz what if i get shoved on im hating life this way i win a small pot then potentially losing a big pot if i get shoved on 

rancid

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

He definitely calls w/ worse often enough. IDCU bets the turn when a Q comes, and bets the river when a second Q comes. His hand is so under repped - he has a Q here, or a straight so many more times than a full house. Hero's hand here is SO OFTEN QJ/QK/QA so if hero 3bets he's always getting sigh called by QJ, definitely called by QK, and snap called by QA
Posted by percival09

Yeah you could be right actually, I am a bum )

IDCU 3 bet would still be str or house though - not 3 betting a Q here

would think IDCU 3 bet gets called by a str, don't think it gets snapped by AQ - maybe sigh call a tad

then again depends whats gone on between them )

if spanky 4 bets then it's like house or bluff - but maybeeeeeeeee could be str :S

lolufold7

It seems that people are completely misreading the situation. WE ARE SO RARELY BEAT HERE. OK, if we get shoved on its an ugly spot but that will so so rarely happen that it isn't really worth discussing. There are virually no hands that make sense that he would play that way. 99 and TT he would have to c-bet. Even if he shows up with them a small amount of the time, it's a cooler and we are destined to lose a big pot. QT c-bets, Q9 most likely c-bets, QQ c-bets, sets SHOULD ALWAYS c-bet. We literally lose to pretty much nothing. 

One other thing which makes it a clear value raise is the size of his raise on the river. He never makes it this size with TT,99, or at least he shouldn't if he is decent. He should realize you can have a Q and make it £11 or something. 

If you think there is no value in raising and AQ will fold (???) then that is a huge leak. Giving far too much respect. As percival stated, we have underrepped our hand.

DOHHHHHHH

You can't be too careful Stevo!

t'snot slowplay/collusion honest :P

ughhh

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
koops89	Small blind		1500.00	1500.00	106756.25
DOHHHHHHH	Big blind		3000.00	4500.00	87100.00
	Your hole cards	9 9
jimblue	Call		3000.00	7500.00	68643.75
koops89	Raise		4500.00	12000.00	102256.25
DOHHHHHHH	Call		3000.00	15000.00	84100.00
jimblue	Call		3000.00	18000.00	65643.75
Flop
		9 Q J
koops89	Bet		3000.00	21000.00	99256.25
DOHHHHHHH	Call		3000.00	24000.00	81100.00
jimblue	Fold
Turn
		J
koops89	Bet		12000.00	36000.00	87256.25
DOHHHHHHH	Call		12000.00	48000.00	69100.00
River
		2
koops89	Bet		18000.00	66000.00	69256.25
DOHHHHHHH	Call		18000.00	84000.00	51100.00
koops89	Show	6 Q
DOHHHHHHH	Show	9 9
DOHHHHHHH	Win	Full House, 9s and Jacks	84000.00		135100.00

offshoot

reraise to 20~ and watch him level himself into calling.

pr1nnyraid

You need to consider the implications of not raising this river.. in terms of you never being able to run credible bluffs. If we are just b/c with hands this strong, then V knows he can make bluffs on river with zero chance of being raised for value by anything but nuts / bluff, so allowing him thinner and thinner value spots which are good for him and bad for you. 

You need to play river spots like this really aggressively as it stops good players going for thinner value V you and they will now be checking back or just calling in spots where a raise is correct for them.  

IDONKCALLU

hense y i left the table after this hand lol  coz i know he thinks wow he just called ? i could get some bluffs thru against this guy he will only call on good holdings 

rancid

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

hense y i left the table after this hand lol  coz i know he thinks wow he just called ? i could get some bluffs thru against this guy he will only call on good holdings 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

While you can say this is true, your bluffs will carry so much more weight )
Still think if oppo is new to you, it's worth just calling and seeing what there upto, so much info to be had.

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

hense y i left the table after this hand lol  coz i know he thinks wow he just called ? i could get some bluffs thru against this guy he will only call on good holdings 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Yeahhhh no i'm not sure you get what i was saying

rancid

In Response to Re: Is this a reraise on the river for value:

You need to consider the implications of not raising this river.. in terms of you never being able to run credible bluffs. If we are just b/c with hands this strong, then V knows he can make bluffs on river with zero chance of being raised for value by anything but nuts / bluff, so allowing him thinner and thinner value spots which are good for him and bad for you.  You need to play river spots like this really aggressively as it stops good players going for thinner value V you and they will now be checking back or just calling in spots where a raise is correct for them.  
Posted by pr1nnyraid

Not so sure I agree with you
If oppo thinks we only b/c with these type of hands then if IDCO bluffs and raises, oppo has to think they are beat
Yeah IDCU will be very polarised by having nutz/bluffs in these spots so I kinda get what your saying
Think we have to start going down the road of learning to adjust in these kind of spots.

Totally agree with the end line, where we deny oppo betting thinly versus us by raising
Don't think there is enough history between the two of them tbh, but I could be wroung
So much to consider )

IDONKCALLU

played sj a few times not much history just know hes a good player any other person on the table i would of raised here just vs him i didnt

grantorino

Raise for value, without history villain has AQ 99.4% of time, and will call lots