Please review = not happy with how I played this hand

spurs_13

Small stake bounty hunter, happy to get pocket Kings but all downhill from there.

How would you play this hand? Discuss

GaryQQQSmall blind 20.0020.001950.00spurs_13Big blind 40.0060.001845.00 Your hole cardsKK   00kavFold    Joker42Call 40.00100.002130.00xxxCall 40.00140.002260.00roka556Fold    GaryQQQFold    spurs_13Raise 160.00300.001685.00Joker42Fold    xxxCall 160.00460.002100.00Flop  A2J   spurs_13Check    xxxCheck    Turn  A   spurs_13Check    xxxCheck    River  4   spurs_13Bet 200.00660.001485.00xxxRaise 845.001505.001255.00spurs_13Fold    xxxMuck    xxxWin 860.00 2115.00xxxReturn 645.000.002760.0

Lambert180

Raise more pre, especially in a low stakes BH at the start with KK.

Definitely c-bet the flop, I probably go around 320ish.

I'd jam the turn.

grantorino

pre fine

I prob bet flop, checking ok but it makes future streets tricky

as played bet turn

bet river bigger, folding to the raise fine imo

percival09

I bet otf.

b/f river bigger

Lambert.. you'd jam the turn? wtf

unknown_username

Hi Spurs

Think you need to bet flop and test the waters/build the pot mate...wet so 3/4 to pot bet imo. It looks to him like u r looking for flush by not betting and have no ace. In the end uv bet too small on river so he's raised it with anything as he senses u will be scared of flush  card now as ur bet is small. Unlees he has a full house he cant be sure he's ahead either unless fishing too so bet on flop would have deterred him from carrying on because of pot odds.
You need to get a bet in on the flop m8 imo after all he has limped  from the cut off. Any Ax had ud expect a raise. Mind after some of the play ive just experienced in  The Boogie Woogie league, i'm not sure at all if my heads on straight! Cheers...

Lambert180

Sorry Percival, I meant if played as I said, so if he went like 200 pre, that makes the pot about 550, then he bets maybe 355 on the flop, so the pot is now 1260 and we have less than that behind.

Ton of hands that call the flop (and not raise) which don't contain Ax which we're ahead of, and would still probably call a less than PSB on the turn (especially in a low stakes BH)

IDONKCALLU

raise bigger pre to 240 the rest is ok im check calling the river tho not bet folding 

BorinLoner

I think the pre-flop raise is fine. A 5x raise after too limpers? Nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

I definitely think you need to bet the flop since you're the pre-flop raiser. If you had the Ace you'd bet and if you had nothing you'd bet to represent the Ace. Hands like KK or QQ are pretty much the only hands that you wouldn't c-bet on this flop, I would imagine. I don't think there's any need to bet as much as 3/4 pot though. 1/2 or 2/3 pot would be fine, as long as that's around what you'd normally c-bet with your entire range. 

On the turn, I wouldn't bet whatever I'd done on the flop and I'm a little surprised to hear others suggesting it.

If we'd bet the flop, as the pre-flop aggressor we're representing strength pre-flop and then strength on an Ace-high flop. When we're called, it's very likely that our opponent is only going to have an Ace. If they limp-call pre-flop with Ax, they're not going to fold when they hit trips on the turn so shoving would seem to be almost suicidal..

If we checked the flop, then are we really getting called by worse often enough to make the bet on the turn a value bet? Perhaps we get called by a Jack but then what do we do on the river? I think we either have the best hand on the turn and are only getting one street of betting from a Jack or worse, or we're crushed by an Ace or better, in which case betting is just burning money.

If our opponent has a flush draw then allowing the free cards is obviously bad but they're going to have an Ace, Jack or nothing more often than a flush draw. There's a decent chance they call the turn on a draw anyway, then bluff the river if they miss and we check.

I can't understand why we'd bet the turn. Maybe I'm being stupid and someone will explain.

I think bet-folding on the river is fine. I'd probably go a little bigger. Betting this small looks like it's a value bet and won't be called by the hands we want to be called by. A slightly bigger bet can look like a desperate stab at the pot. I wouldn't go bigger than 300, though.

grantorino

We bet turn for value, called by Jx, fds, gunshots and pocket pairs enough to make it profitable imo

rancid

make it 200 pre

bet flop
bet turn

a/p check river - if you bet river go bigger
if you check flop then bet turn

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Please review = not happy with how I played this hand:

We bet turn for value, called by Jx, fds, gunshots and pocket pairs enough to make it profitable imo
Posted by grantorino

Yes, we'll get called by a Jack but we'll probably still be called by a Jack if we bet the river instead.
I'm not sure we get called by pocket pairs below the Jack very often but if we do they probably call on the river too.

The flush draw is the only interesting one but if we're not betting the river as well (which presumably we can't) then we're just going to make it really easy for a missed draw to bluff us on the river. Are we going to check-call the river? I doubt any gutshots call us on an Aces-paired, flushing board. If any draws call us, what bet size on the turn allows us to credibly check the river and not be bluffed?

If our opponent has Ax, then we're giving them easy money by betting the turn.

If we can't bet both the turn and river, then I don't think we can bet the turn.

grantorino

You can often fire both turn and river imo

Oppo can easily bluff us on any street, if we are checking any of them

How are we giving Ax easy money by betting turn, but not by betting river?

Its pretty hard to answer your points borin with no reads or history from op

BorinLoner

Ax is unlikely to check the turn behind us. By this time most players are going to be looking for value.
After we miss our c-bet on the flop, I don't think there are any good options if we face a bet. I think we can only check-call or bet-fold one street and if we do that on the turn, we can't do it on the river. So any bluff is going to get through us if they can fire the turn and river. I just want to check the turn and hope it's checked behind.

Actually, after checking the flop I think there are as many arguments for just check-folding on the turn. I hate it, but we can never have an Ace and any decent player is going to see that. If we bet the turn, the only Ace we can have is AA and that's impossible and pointless to represent. Either our opponent has an Ace and knows we can't have quads or they have a worse hand than us anyway. If they bet with a draw on the turn, they'll bet the river too either for value or as a bluff, and we can't call two streets. If they bet with a Jack, we can only hope they won't bet the river. So do we check-call the turn hoping he has a Jack and won't also bet the river? 

If we bet both turn and river, surely we're only called by an Ace or better. A Jack can't call two streets and a flush draw either gets there on the river and we pay them for it or it doesn't get there and we make them fold it. We get called by better and fold out worse.

If the turn is checked through, as it was, then we can bet the river and still get value from the Jacks or maybe TT, 99, etc. Of course, if the Ax has checked the turn we still pay it off but, as I say, Ax is a less likely holding after the turn is checked.

If we only bet the turn and then check the river, we might as well hold up a white flag and say we can't stand a bet. They check back a Jack and bet both Ax and flush-draws whether they get there or not.

I think we have to hope to be able check this down to the river, then possibly look for for value from a Jack. After missing the c-bet on the flop, I think that's the only decent option. The only purpose of the bet on the turn is to get rid of a draw, which we might do but do we really need to get rid of hands that have a 20% chance against us?

BorinLoner

That's written a bit haphazardly. Sorry.

spurs_13

Some really good points which give me much food for thought. As a complete novice I find it fasinating when experienced players discuss hands as this and I would like to thank all of you for taking the time out to give advice on this and all the other hands put up in this forum

Graeme

grantorino

In Response to Re: Please review = not happy with how I played this hand:

Ax is unlikely to check the turn behind us. By this time most players are going to be looking for value. After we miss our c-bet on the flop, I don't think there are any good options if we face a bet. I think we can only check-call or bet-fold one street and if we do that on the turn, we can't do it on the river. So any bluff is going to get through us if they can fire the turn and river. I just want to check the turn and hope it's checked behind. Actually, after checking the flop I think there are as many arguments for just check-folding on the turn. I hate it, but we can never have an Ace and any decent player is going to see that. If we bet the turn, the only Ace we can have is AA and that's impossible and pointless to represent. Either our opponent has an Ace and knows we can't have quads or they have a worse hand than us anyway. If they bet with a draw on the turn, they'll bet the river too either for value or as a bluff, and we can't call two streets. If they bet with a Jack, we can only hope they won't bet the river. So do we check-call the turn hoping he has a Jack and won't also bet the river?  If we bet both turn and river, surely we're only called by an Ace or better. A Jack can't call two streets and a flush draw either gets there on the river and we pay them for it or it doesn't get there and we make them fold it. We get called by better and fold out worse. If the turn is checked through, as it was, then we can bet the river and still get value from the Jacks or maybe TT, 99, etc. Of course, if the Ax has checked the turn we still pay it off but, as I say, Ax is a less likely holding after the turn is checked. If we only bet the turn and then check the river, we might as well hold up a white flag and say we can't stand a bet. They check back a Jack and bet both Ax and flush-draws whether they get there or not. I think we have to hope to be able check this down to the river, then possibly look for for value from a Jack. After missing the c-bet on the flop, I think that's the only decent option. The only purpose of the bet on the turn is to get rid of a draw, which we might do but do we really need to get rid of hands that have a 20% chance against us?
Posted by BorinLoner

So why cant we bet 2 streets?