What to do

grantorino

Ok, my first hand at the table

I have a note on villain "nitty, bets small with monsters",but dont remember playing him. He is multitabling

I am 3b blufffing pre, which is questionable imo, feel free to flame

How do I proceed on flop?

Its 5 handed btw, folded to btn

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£60.58
grantorino	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	K 10
BTN	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£85.47
SB	Fold
grantorino	Raise		£4.50	£6.75	£45.00
BTN	Call		£3.50	£10.25	£81.97
Flop
		K 3 6

huuuuume

considering you would cbet this flop a high % of the time if you missed it, logically it would make sense to bet when you hit the flop.

then re evaluate depending on what villain does

rancid

bet

grantorino

If I bet, do I b/f?

If I am called what's my plan on turn

huuuuume

In Response to Re: What to do:

If I bet, do I b/f? If I am called what's my plan on turn
Posted by grantorino

you've inflated the pot pre flop oop with k10 offsuit.  its not likely you're going to have many easy decisions as you go down the streets.  its pretty much all on your reads

TPTP123

In Response to Re: What to do:

If I bet, do I b/f? If I am called what's my plan on turn
Posted by grantorino

Depends on how you think villain would play a set or TT/JJ on this board IP

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

In Response to Re: What to do : you've inflated the pot pre flop oop with k10 offsuit.  its not likely you're going to have many easy decisions as you go down the streets.  its pretty much all on your reads
Posted by huuuuume

Agreed

I always find flopping tpwk oop when I 3b bluff pre tricky. Obv it gets pretty read dependent, but if anyone had any thoughts that would be great

percival09

bet as you would do w/ Q10o. 

if you get raised fyl

grantorino

its much easier when I have QTo

Do I treat KT the same

what do I do if my flop bet gets called, lets say a blank turn

BorinLoner

Why are we wanting to 3-bet bluff with a marginal hand, out of position against a largely unknown player? Especially a player on whom we have a single note which says "nitty" and alludes only to how he plays monsters?

Anyway, I'd prefer 3-betting with 72 to KT. I probably just fold pre-flop but then I'm pretty nitty myself when I'm in the blinds.

Once we get to the flop, I agree we should c-bet. If we'd c-bet with 72, then we should c-bet with top-pair. If he calls, then I'm checking the turn and looking to check-call, though I don't know if I want to check-call both turn and river... hmmm... Probably need to on the off-chance that he floated the flop. At least we know he'll make it cheap for us if he has a monster. lol

If we check the flop, I think we end up check-calling three streets if the board comes out dry. I don't know if I'd like that either, readless. Do unknowns bluff/value-bet with worse on three streets very often?

LOL_RAISE

i would check and do a call

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: What to do:

i would check and do a call
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Okay. I don't hate that. At what point do we give up, though? Give up on the turn or river or just call it down? Let's assume the turn and river are bricks.

LOL_RAISE

well id prob just c/c down on bricks, esp if he starts betting big because of reads in op.

vs nitty player if we bet flop i think all worse made hands will fold unless it has equity like FD's.

were oop deep with pretty marginal hand so id want to pot control / induce bluffs

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

Why are we wanting to 3-bet bluff with a marginal hand, out of position against a largely unknown player? Especially a player on whom we have a single note which says "nitty" and alludes only to how he plays monsters?

Cos I think he folds enough to make it +Ev and I'm not sure flatting will be profitable

Anyway, I'd prefer 3-betting with 72 to KT. I probably just fold pre-flop but then I'm pretty nitty myself when I'm in the blinds.
 
Im stumped as to why 3b 72 would be better than KT when you dont think KT is strong enough to call

Once we get to the flop, I agree we should c-bet. If we'd c-bet with 72, then we should c-bet with top-pair.

Why should i do the same with air as tpwk

If he calls, then I'm checking the turn and looking to check-call, though I don't know if I want to check-call both turn and river... hmmm... Probably need to on the off-chance that he floated the flop. At least we know he'll make it cheap for us if he has a monster. lol If we check the flop, I think we end up check-calling three streets if the board comes out dry. I don't know if I'd like that either, readless. Do unknowns bluff/value-bet with worse on three streets very often?
Posted by BorinLoner

At least you have given an indication of how you would continue. Dont think I would be calling both turn and river, tbh I'd be reluctant to call turn. But b/f then give up sucks as I am bluffing unless he checks back twice. c/c flop sounds ok, but I am asking him to bluff me, whether he knows this idk

AMYBR

bet and play through streets.  Are we going to turn our hand into a bluff catcher and hope 1pr remains the best hand to the river?

Even s nitty player will open the button with avg+ and call a raise with certain dynamics, esp IP. 

We just give away everything by checking.  We'ver been happy to inflate the pot pre, now we need (and should) continue that we have flopped top pair - just as we likely would if we had totally missed.

Am not saying we should go broke, but keeping foot on gas and re assessing if we find suspect resistance

TPTP123

I think BL is getting at the logic similar to the below, ie that KT is too valuable to fold and in the same essence its too valuable to 3bet as it plays better as a defending hand in single raise pots. 

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/full-ring-nl-holdem/renton-theorem-aka-abcd-theorem-156835.html

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

I think BL is getting at the logic similar to the below, ie that KT is too valuable to fold and in the same essence its too valuable to 3bet as it plays better as a defending hand in single raise pots.  http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/full-ring-nl-holdem/renton-theorem-aka-abcd-theorem-156835.html
Posted by TPTP123

understand that concept, but he said he prob folds KT pre

TPTP123

Yeah agreed. KT is a obv flatting hand that plays well imo.. so no reason to 3bet unless we think villlain has a ridic wide call3bet%. 

Using it to fold out hands that we have good equity against is kinda silly.... like what do you think is villains opening raise range and of those hands what do you feel like your folding out? (will reply later this eve as now watching spurs crush utd on MOTD)

BorinLoner

I don't know how often he folds to your 3-bet. I think my point was that neither did you.

I prefer 3-bet bluffing with 72 (obviously an extreme example) simply because you know what you're doing. You're not going to flop top-pair and accidentally make a big pot and 72 is unlikely to be dominated by the opponent's 3-bet calling range as often as KT will be.

I kinda think check-call is a better line now, given a bit of thought and with LOL_RAISE's reasoning making me feel like a bit of a donk... Still, we can't just always be checking when we hit hands and betting when we don't. Maybe with this hand that's better if we don't think we can bet flop, then check-call down or if we don't think there's more value in giving him the chance to bluff.
 
I don't particularly like the term "protecting your hand" but there's a bit of that in the logic I'd apply to betting the flop: You get some value from those draws but you can also think that if he's got JJ or lower he may call one street with just one overcard on the board, even though it's a King. Check-calling down thereafter would seem best. He probably doesn't bet two streets on underpairs, so we're only calling down to see missed draws if he bets both turn and river, I suppose.

BorinLoner

I don't think KT is a terrible hand to call the raise with, I just said I'd fold. That's because I hardly call with anything out of the blinds.

Is that optimal? I dunno.

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

Yeah agreed. KT is a obv flatting hand that plays well imo.. so no reason to 3bet unless we think villlain has a ridic wide call3bet%.  Using it to fold out hands that we have good equity against is kinda silly.... like what do you think is villains opening raise range and of those hands what do you feel like your folding out? (will reply later this eve as now watching spurs crush utd on MOTD)
Posted by TPTP123

Yeah, you could argue its strong enough to call. I'm not so sure oop, which is why I decided to turn it into a bluff. Im oop, villain has initiative and I have a mediocre hand and not great reads

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

I don't think KT is a terrible hand to call the raise with, I just said I'd fold. That's because I hardly call with anything out of the blinds. Is that optimal? I dunno.
Posted by BorinLoner

There are good arguments for folding or calling pre. Maybe I shouldnt 3b with my lack of reads. I still think KT is a better hand to 3bet with than 72, assuming you are not happy to flat with KT

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: What to do:

In Response to Re: What to do : Yeah, you could argue its strong enough to call. I'm not so sure oop, which is why I decided to turn it into a bluff. Im oop, villain has initiative and I have a mediocre hand and not great reads
Posted by grantorino

This is what I think but I see it as reason to fold, not to 3-bet. When we 3-bet and are called, we're still out of position, we still have a mediocre hand and we still have not great reads. Obviously sometimes we get the fold but without those reads anytime we build a big pot in this situation we're going to find it tricky. Making a 3-bet is going to lead to big pots. I don't mind 3-betting if we know that our opponent is going to fold to either the 3-bet or a c-bet alot of the time. I don't like 3-betting the hand if our opponents going to put us to difficult decisions. We don't know which of those things he might be doing.

Do we really need to complicate things? Can we not just make the game easy and fold in these situations?

grantorino

Yeah we can fold. Think the 3b will be +EV though. But pretty much agree with what you say

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: What to do:

In Response to Re: What to do : There are good arguments for folding or calling pre. Maybe I shouldnt 3b with my lack of reads. I still think KT is a better hand to 3bet with than 72, assuming you are not happy to flat with KT
Posted by grantorino

As I say, 72 is an extreme example. One I used in order to highlight the point. Hands like unsuited connectors, one/two-gappers, etc. would be better. Generally I'd want it to be a hand I'm not going to face tough decisions with if I hit one-pair.

TPTP123

Maybe I shouldnt 3b with my lack of reads. 

I think this more than anything else really, start getting out of line when you have your reads written down until then use a nice simple default 3B strategy. 

Calling or treating KT as air depends on how comfortable you are playing against wide button openers imo oop. When I  say wide i'm thinking like opening every button that is folded to villain.

rancid

GT - why do you think 3 betting here is +EV

without reads it's impossible to say imo

no idea on oppo continuation range
no idea how oppo reacts to 3 bets from the blinds

so,,,,,,maybe readless 3 bet to c bet is ok ..... idk though.... tbh

grantorino

In Response to Re: What to do:

GT - why do you think 3 betting here is +EV without reads it's impossible to say imo no idea on oppo continuation range no idea how oppo reacts to 3 bets from the blinds so,,,,,,maybe readless 3 bet to c bet is ok ..... idk though.... tbh
Posted by rancid

Well I have a note hes nitty, lol

I dont know for sure, but you could say that for lots of situations in poker readless

3betting will often be +EV in a vacuum. I'll win the pot enouigh pre or with a cbet against most reggy type villains. However if I 3b every hand they obv adjust, so I have to choose hands and situations to do it in. Whether this is a good one is very questionable for lots of reasons

Anyhow I bet flop 1/2 pot, villain basically 3xs my bet, I fold. Thoughts

rancid

In Response to Re: What to do:

In Response to Re: What to do : Well I have a note hes nitty, lol I dont know for sure, but you could say that for lots of situations in poker readless 3betting will often be +EV in a vacuum. I'll win the pot enouigh pre or with a cbet against most reggy type villains. However if I 3b every hand they obv adjust, so I have to choose hands and situations to do it in. Whether this is a good one is very questionable for lots of reasons Anyhow I bet flop 1/2 pot, villain basically 3xs my bet, I fold. Thoughts
Posted by grantorino

think u want to have an idea when called that you'll be ahead of oppo calling range if your going to 3 bet K10
if your 3 betting K10 than your happy just calling with KJ/KQ
you want oppo folding pre or calling with K9 & worse + low-mid prs & even AQ/AJ
if you know oppo calls with this then you can bet flop & barrel

if oppo is nitty then oppo 4 bets better obviously but does oppo fold to 3 bets a lot ?

folding to the 3x is fine, unless you want to level yourself into thinking oppo has a FD
Suppose they could but readless and tagged nitty - just fold )
Bit odd that they would flat your 3 bet then raise you on flop :S

BorinLoner

What on Earth does a tight reg raise with on that flop? AA? AK?

Can't see why they'd raise with Kx or QQ and below. So unless they have a set I suppose you probably had the best hand. The flush draw does make alot of sense, as does air.

Odd indeed.

grantorino

Yeah I wanted to call, but too often they show me better when I call these sort of spots.. Most of his draws have As, some have ks and better kicker, so tthought his range crushed me unless he does it a good bit with air.

Agree he shouldn't be raising many better hands, but people do ime