What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn

IDONKCALLU

Read a good reg played him a fair bit is hes hand polarised when he raises on this flop as air or a king could be doing it with a flush draw but cant see it with the action i think he puts me on the hand i got well qq or aa so thats y he raised to play for stacks i think i made a discipline fold on the turn but is it a call thoughts thanks guys hope my input as helped  p.s i think this is a leak in my game call a raise but still fold and i knew he was going to barrel how do i stop this  IDONKCALLUSmall blind £0.10£0.10£50.38PaulbbmBig blind £0.20£0.30£39.80 Your hole cardsAA   wudibluffFold    jams88Raise £0.60£0.90£34.73davon121Fold    IDONKCALLURaise £1.60£2.50£48.78PaulbbmFold    jams88Call £1.10£3.60£33.63Flop  KK8   IDONKCALLUBet £2.40£6.00£46.38jams88Raise £5.60£11.60£28.03IDONKCALLUCall £3.20£14.80£43.18Turn  6   IDONKCALLUCheck    jams88Bet £11.00£25.80£17.03

IDONKCALLU

does any 1 else call knowing there losing money coz u know the guy is gonna barrel on the turn should i have just reraised the flop i didnt know what to do sigh

jams88

read is pretty spot on i either have it or don't and either way i will barrel turn. So i guess the question is do you feel lucky punk? well do you?

EDIT: whats the hand history i will post hand if you want?

IDONKCALLU

ok jams im curios

IDONKCALLU

heres the hand pal and well played if ya bluffed me    570621674

LnarinOO

3bet should be bigger pre.... make it £10.50 and snap fold to a shove 

IDONKCALLU

i was gonna do that but what if i get flat called im gonna barrel the turn and could be dead to a king 

Pipunch

make it £2 pre minimum

shove or fold the flop. readless i fold

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

make it £2 pre minimum shove or fold the flop. readless i fold
Posted by Pipunch

Why do you say this? 

If we shove and he's bluffing, he just folds.

If we shove and he's raising us with the goods we've just gifted him a buy in.

--------------

I haven't played this villain THAT much, but when people post hands v him in the clinic he seems to do some funky stuff. I've no idea if he takes weird lines for value as well as bluffs, which makes this a horrible spot readless.

It's just guesswork without reads (familiar feeling for me), if it was a random I'd call flop, call turn and call river. 

He should be bluffing here but ya never know! 

Pipunch

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn : Why do you say this?  If we shove and he's bluffing, he just folds. If we shove and he's raising us with the goods we've just gifted him a buy in.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

because either one is better than calling. i don't mind reraising flop then folding but calling is pretty weak imo

why are people obsessed with 'he'll fold weaker hands'. then you pick up a nice little pot. no big deal, move on.

and anyway thats why i said i'd fold readless. with a read you'd know what to do for the better

calling hoping to hit a set otherwise we fold...? weak.

also you say 'we've gifted him a buy in by shoving' yet then go on to say you would call it down. look at his stack, he'll end up putting us all in anyway. he's playing for stacks

DOHHHHHHH

But his range when he bets the flop, turn and  then shoves the river is wider than if he calls our shove on the flop. 

When we shove the flop, he continues with only hands that beat us. 

-----

And your first question, the aim of the game is to maximise winnings and minimize losses.

When we shove this flop we maximise losses and minimize winnings. 

Pipunch

man i didn't say that i would shove the flop. can you read? i said shove or fold because it's better than calling looking to fold an aceless turn.

it's a VERY clear fold.

and that's why i said readless i'd fold. you're assuming he's good enough to lay down underpairs to the K's. he might not be. i see plenty of people jamming QQ-99 here. he doesn't necessarily always lay down everything that we beat and it's short sighted to think that there are players that won't.

in a 5p/10p game on another site about 5 mins ago i saw someone in this exact situation shove QQ on an AKK board.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn : because either one is better than calling. 
Posted by Pipunch

I was addressing this point.

Folding may well be better than calling.

Shoving certainly isn't.

imo ofc. 

Pipunch

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn : I was addressing this point. Folding may well be better than calling. Shoving certainly isn't. imo ofc. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

regardless of what you say this is totally dependent on the opposition.

shoving here can be massively profitable if the player is willing to disbelieve you and call with worse. it happens.

IDONKCALLU

what dohhh means if i shove hes only calling with a king here so im turning a gd hand into a bluff where as if i call down im bluff catching 

Lambert180

Doh is right imo.

People are obsessed with 'he'll fold weaker hands' because we want to maximise the money we make while we have the best hand, so encouraging people to fold weaker hands (if they have poor equity v you) is generally bad.

Shoving here is gonna get calls by hands that beat us way more often than hands that we beat imo

spurs_13

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

Doh is right imo. People are obsessed with 'he'll fold weaker hands' because we want to maximise the money we make while we have the best hand, so encouraging people to fold weaker hands (if they have poor equity v you) is generally bad. Shoving here is gonna get calls by hands that beat us way more often than hands that we beat imo
Posted by Lambert180

+1

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

3bet should be bigger pre.... make it £10.50 and snap fold to a shove 
Posted by LnarinOO

think 3b/fing AA in 3b pot is pretty bad tbh

either call down or fold flop if you think he will barrel 100%.

think folding is best. we should have a fair amount of Kx in our range so it's not really a great spot for him to be bluffing in and i wouldnt be worried about villain trying to exploit us here.

also dont think you can get 3 streets of value with AA here so you could think about checking the flop

rancid

fold or call down flop


+1 to checking flop - even though people will say what do you check here it's pretty obvious what you have
So what - how we gonna get three streets out of underpairs and not value town ourselves so much versus better


as for shoving flop, we are going to be behind more times that we are ahead or face folds more than someone calls with underpair/FD's- some oppo may level themself into calling the shove, maybe ok sometimes but hey it just depends

IDONKCALLU

I thought it was a intresting hand thanks for ya replies like i said its a leak in my game why did i call the flop raise when i know hes going to barrel the turn silly me im sure wel all do it i could check the flop for pot control but wanted max value out of my hand and bet all 3 streets jams did say he would post the hand but he hasnt i hink hes got 1 over on me here and dnt wanna show it

percival09

+1 lolraise & dohhhh

Pipunch

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

Doh is right imo. People are obsessed with 'he'll fold weaker hands' because we want to maximise the money we make while we have the best hand, so encouraging people to fold weaker hands (if they have poor equity v you) is generally bad. Shoving here is gonna get calls by hands that beat us way more often than hands that we beat imo
Posted by Lambert180

man....people don't listen.

i never said shoving was good. i said it would be my preferred option over call folding AA in a 3bet pot like a mug. if you're calling to fold an aceless turn as happened then you might as well go hide under the bed whenever anyone raises you on a scary board.

it's a clear fold, and i don't know how much more clearly i coulda said that.

bold bit: dependent on villain, as i've also already said.

villain knows if you're calling the turn you're probably not gonna fold because of his stack size, so why is he gonna keep bluffing you? this is why if you at least reraise on the flop you can get away, but if you call down you're most likely just stationing off a buy in anyway. i think it's better to test the opponent rather than just be passive and weak. if we lose a buy in, so what.

IDONKCALLU

i dont think all is the right move tho u only get called by a king imo tho what do u think pipunch

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn : man....people don't listen. 
Posted by Pipunch

He didn't even quote your post, don't take things so personally you're turning into IDCU!

It's a discussion, it's been suggested in the thread that shoving may be better than calling. 

He (and I) disagrees and is explaining why he thinks this. Isn't this why people start threads in here?

We know you have said you would fold, and I don't see anyone challenging that. It may well be the right thing to do readless. 

I think calling is better than folding, although it's close. But both are wayyyyy better than shoving. 

Pipunch

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn:

In Response to Re: What to do on the turn a leak in my game just calling the raise on flop but what now on the turn : He didn't even quote your post, don't take things so personally you're turning into IDCU! It's a discussion, it's been suggested in the thread that shoving may be better than calling.  He (and I) disagrees and is explaining why he thinks this. Isn't this why people start threads in here? We know you have said you would fold, and I don't see anyone challenging that. It may well be the right thing to do readless.  I think calling is better than folding, although it's close. But both are wayyyyy better than shoving. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

he did

DOHHHHHHH

meh! :P

He shud have done it properly then to stop me embarrassing myself the useless Scouse plonker. 

Pipunch

and like i said, your reasoning is that this is 100% total air/nuts. my reasoning and the reasoning behind a shove sometimes is the fact that people WILL call this when behind. i see it all the time at micro stakes. IF the player is capable of calling a shove with the worst part of his range then i don't see how a shove can always be wrong. certain players are capable of calling a shove here with QQ-99, that's a fact. everyone elses point in this thread was based on the same thing. you can never be 100% that it's a bluff/nuts, and depending on a read i think shoving can sometimes get a call from worse and sometimes a fold where we take down a nice pot.

99% of the time i'm folding but i think it's wrong to say that someone at such low stakes is always so polarised.

grantorino

Fold or call down without clear reads what he gives up with. 

3b/f on flopwould be horrible imo. Don't like shoving flop without good reads and an aggro dynamic

Idcu, stop 3betting so small oop, esp when deep against competent players

Checking flop ok, think I prefer betting though

jams88

Sorry for the late reply IDCU but iv swapped in my job from bar work at night to a day job so been at work all day.

If it adds to the discussion, i considered flatting here but thought that i would raise iwth air occasionally so should also do it with the hand. I also think that flatting here looks very strong and may lead to a check/fold by IDCU on the turn.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
IDONKCALLU	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£50.38
Paulbbm	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£39.80
	Your hole cards	K Q
wudibluff	Fold
jams88	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£34.73
davon121	Fold
IDONKCALLU	Raise		£1.60	£2.50	£48.78
Paulbbm	Fold
jams88	Call		£1.10	£3.60	£33.63
Flop
		K K 8
IDONKCALLU	Bet		£2.40	£6.00	£46.38
jams88	Raise		£5.60	£11.60	£28.03
IDONKCALLU	Call		£3.20	£14.80	£43.18
Turn
		6
IDONKCALLU	Check
jams88	Bet		£11.00	£25.80	£17.03
IDONKCALLU	Fold
jams88	Muck
jams88	Win		£14.06		£31.09
jams88	Return		£11.00	£0.74	£42.09

NColley

raising small made your hand look way stronger then flatting ever would

IDONKCALLU

nh jams i put this on tonights show for clinic wanna hear redmond lees thoughts be intresting