My Biggest Leak

robbie1992

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
robbie1992	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£49.25
Wizwazwez	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	7 7
Spad3s	Fold
rurarix	Fold
robbie1992	Raise		£1.00	£1.75	£48.25
Wizwazwez	Raise		£5.00	£6.75	£44.50
robbie1992	Call		£4.25	£11.00	£44.00
Flop
		3 4 2
robbie1992	Check
Wizwazwez	Bet		£7.50	£18.50	£37.00
robbie1992	Raise		£15.00	£33.50	£29.00
Wizwazwez	All-in		£37.00	£70.50	£0.00
robbie1992	All-in		£29.00	£99.50	£0.00
Wizwazwez	Unmatched bet		£0.50	£99.00	£0.50
robbie1992	Show	7 7
Wizwazwez	Show	K K
Turn
		8
River
		2
Wizwazwez	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 2s	£97.20		£97.70

I no this is a dum hand, i dont want anyone to say what worse hand was you beating and all that.  I want to know how to get away from overpair v overpair or at least find a way in which we can prove were losing.  Surely i cant fold an overpair everything because the opposition shows aggresion ??

IDONKCALLU

u waaaaaaaatttttttttttttttt u should never be getting ya stack in here geeeez im folding to the reraise preflop

Lambert180

Just fold preflop. Make it 3x, but fold to the raise. When you get it in, what are you thinking he could have, AK and just won't give up on it?

Most people won't 3bet you this big preflop with 22-66 and you're behind to 22, 33 and 55 anyway. You're always gonna be up against a bigger PP here imo, when it goes in on the flop

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to My Biggest Leak:

I no this is a dum hand, i dont want anyone to say what worse hand was you beating and all that.  I want to know how to get away from overpair v overpair or at least find a way in which we can prove were losing.  Surely i cant fold an overpair everything because the opposition shows aggresion ??
Posted by robbie1992

You can, but doesn't mean u should.

Even if you don't fold, why do you think raising is a better option than calling?

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

u waaaaaaaatttttttttttttttt u should never be getting ya stack in here geeeez im folding to the reraise preflop
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Dont no what i was doing, just wanted to win as quick as possiable so i convinced myself i was winning here.  I thought the raise pre was a defend it was sb v bb

IDONKCALLU

If ya trying to make aquick buck poker is not it u will make rash decisions its a game of patience if u are 1 tabling play ore tables robbie then ya head is always busy clicking away my advice 

Lambert180

Would be a massive defend, you min-raised and he's went 10x! If he's bluffing so, so be it, but even if he has Q8, you're playing OOP in a really bloated pot and aren't gonna know where you are unless you flop a 7.

The key to getting away from the overpair v overpair in this hand imo was preflop. Think about the hands that 3bet you REALLY big preflop. How many of them are you beating? and how many are beating you?

Most of the time, you're going to be crushed (unless you flop a 7) or even if you're not, you'll end up seeing a flop you hate and having to fold anyway.

Playing more tables is a good idea but only if you have a fair grasp of what you're doing. If there are massive flaws in your game, then playing more tables will just make you lose faster. Get the basics sorted first.

jams88

the raise is asking you to commit a little over 10% of your stack on a pair of 7s then play the whole hand oop. Those are not the correct odds to go set mining so tbh it should be a fold pre unless you have spcefic reads villian does this with worse

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

In Response to My Biggest Leak : You can, but doesn't mean u should. Even if you don't fold, why do you think raising is a better option than calling?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

thats what i mean, i dont no how to find out,  Okay thats a good argument for folding pre i agree on that.  But once the flop comes iv got an overpair, he will lead into me no matter what he has, whats the point in calling because im sure his betting the turn again because his near enough commited.  By raising im folding out bluffs which is what i want, i wanted to end the hand now.  AHHH! just such a dum hand dunno what i was thinking

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

If ya trying to make aquick buck poker is not it u will make rash decisions its a game of patience if u are 1 tabling play ore tables robbie then ya head is always busy clicking away my advice 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I no donk but iv worked for months on my game and im making decisions like that , just so annoying, if i lose my money to bad beat or good play ill say well done to the fella.  But feels like you didnt get value when you look at that hand and realise you lost your stack on a hand your never winning ...... so to sum up if im in the position again, i should just fold? doesnt that make me easy to bluff  tho ??

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

the raise is asking you to commit a little over 10% of your stack on a pair of 7s then play the whole hand oop. Those are not the correct odds to go set mining so tbh it should be a fold pre unless you have spcefic reads villian does this with worse
Posted by jams88

thats a good point cheers jams, didnt think of it like that.  Tbh this was the 2nd hand aswell so the villian wouldnt even think im splashing around or raising alot, so its unlikely he will defend with trash anyway cause he didnt have no read on me. O well least iv learnt abit today

Lambert180

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak : thats what i mean, i dont no how to find out,  Okay thats a good argument for folding pre i agree on that.  But once the flop comes iv got an overpair, he will lead into me no matter what he has, whats the point in calling because im sure his betting the turn again because his near enough commited.  By raising im folding out bluffs which is what i want, i wanted to end the hand now.  AHHH! just such a dum hand dunno what i was thinking
Posted by robbie1992

The point of calling is that he doesn't fold bluffs though.

If you raise get it in on this flop, you will be behind. Whereas if you call, sometimes you're ahead because he's just c-betting his big Aces etc. If you are committed to playing the hand to the end, then check/calling means he has a wider range than just getting it in.

jugglegeek

The big leak here comes pre-flop. I don't think that there is anything wrong with making a set of rules for playing pre-flop and sticking ridgidly to them, when playing readless at least. Open raise size: always make it 3x from all possitions and 2.5x from the button. Decide why you are raising when you make the raise. Is it for value, to steal the blinds uncontested, or some kind of combination of the two.

In this situation you are going to be out of possition on the flop if called and you only have one player to get through to steal the blinds. Make it £1.50 (raise £1.25) from this possition with all hands. With 77 it's a kind of semi-bluff at this point. If you get called then you can c-bet and maybe take it down on the flop, or you might flop a set, or you might get a good turn card to barrel after c-betting the flop and being called. But if you get raise on the flop or 3-bet pre-flop then there isn't much point continuing with the bluff

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak : The point of calling is that he doesn't fold bluffs though. If you raise get it in on this flop, you will be behind. Whereas if you call, sometimes you're ahead because he's just c-betting his big Aces etc. If you are committed to playing the hand to the end, then check/calling means he has a wider range than just getting it in.
Posted by Lambert180

I want him to fold now tho, nearly any turn card will be bad for me so by just calling it tells me nothing about his hand.

grantorino

I don't like your small raise pre from sb, fold to 3b readless, it's just too hard to continue postflop profitably

If you do call pre decide what your plan is, are you set mining, continueing on certain flops where you are likely ahead , or bluffing certain flops. You prob don't have odds to purely set mine

On flop, this is a good flop for you. However the range that continues if you raise usually crushes you, so raising makes him fold out the part of range you are ahead of, and call or raise with a range you have really poor equity against. Calling is tricky too, you have no idea of villain tendencies and won't like most turn cards and are oop, so it's tough for you to keep calling if he keeps betting.  These are part of the reason why people like folding pre

Talon

  Without any specific reads on the opponent then you have to put him on a possible range for making this size 3-bet preflop. Unless of course he is a real maniac then we have to look in terms of bigger pp or at best a big Ace.


  There is a justification for folding pre and could not argue with that. But once you call you need to look at the board harder than your first glance.

 You have looked and seen that you have an overpair to the board and that is all without considering the connectedness of the board. What this board shows that if he does have the best possible hand for you with the big ace then the flop has given him more ways to win.

  What this means in a nutshell is htat if he has just a big Ace then you are only about a 60/40 favourite on this flop, and if he has the overpair then you are a 90/10 underdog.


 So with this in mind you are either a marginal favourite or a massive underdog here. I see no reason at all for getting it all in here. Over time with these odds it is a losing play and will continually bleed money away.


  The only time that this sort of play is any good at all is when you have specific reads on an opponent about their 3-betting ranges.

waller02

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

u waaaaaaaatttttttttttttttt u should never be getting ya stack in here geeeez im folding to the reraise preflop
Posted by IDONKCALLU

no you wouldnt........lol

DrRunGood

you ask if there is a way of knowing your beat well raise pre tells you and straight away you should only be calling to hit a 7 if you miss and face a raise you should have already decided to fold

IDONKCALLU

i would hes gone extra £4 if i did call would only be to set mine if i dnt hit 7 im outta there with such a big raise obv the opponent has big pp

Pipunch

there's a difference between letting go because someone's shown aggression and then letting go cause someone's 4bet shoved a dry flop in a massive pot which was 3bet pre

TPTP123

You should have some reads here imo as villain is a reg and if you've been playing for a few months then we should have some information on him - but BvB can be difficult and you can sometimes end up owning yourselve thinking someone is playing back at you, especially if you think, that they think your stealing w air pre. + they have position. 

I don't mind a min raise from the button (or even cutoff with trash if BN is just an uber nit and never stealing) but min raising a value hand from the SB is kinda ugly.  The reason a min raise from the button v multitabling nits is good is that they auto fold or they adjust incorrectly... doing it form the SB BvB doesn't make any sense!?!

There is no way to "prove" your loosing, you should be focusing on what hands villain 3bets to £5 preflop and then consider his postflop actions, some players will 3bet here with AJ, KQs, 99 when they auto 3x but he his thought about the raise size so i would prob donk/fold flop like £6.....only to fold out AJs+ and then give up

Edit: Not calling villain a multitabling nit, just speaking generally. 

robbie1992

In Response to Re: My Biggest Leak:

You should have some reads here imo as villain is a reg and if you've been playing for a few months then we should have some information on him - but BvB can be difficult and you can sometimes end up owning yourselve thinking someone is playing back at you, especially if you think, that they think your stealing w air pre. + they have position.  I don't mind a min raise from the button  (or even cutoff with trash   if BN is just an uber nit and never stealing) but min raising a value hand from the SB is kinda ugly.  The reason a min raise from the button v multitabling nits is good is that they auto fold or they adjust incorrectly... doing it form the SB BvB doesn't make any sense!?! There is no way to "prove" your loosing, you should be focusing on what hands villain 3bets to £5 preflop and then consider his postflop actions, some players will 3bet here with AJ, KQs, 99 when they auto 3x but he his thought about the raise size so i would prob donk/fold flop like £6.....only to fold out AJs+ and then give up Edit: Not calling villain a multitabling nit, just speaking generally. 
Posted by TPTP123

Thanks for the advice, i thought min raise was poitnless on bb because he will call more which is not what u want but i watched a training video that said it has to work less to still be profitable which doesnt make sense.  I played 50nl at others sites not on this site so i was stupid for getitng so involved without any reads

Lambert180

Betting less and it having to work less often to be profitable does make sense.

Say you bet 30p as a bluff to try to win a £1.20 pot. If you do this 4 times and it only works once, you lose 30p x 3 which is 90p, but win the £1.20 once so you make profit.

Same scenario but you bet 70p to steal the £1.20 pot, and say it works 1in4 times again, 3 times you lose 70p x 3 which is £2.10 and 1 time you won £1.20 so you've lost long term.

The cheaper your bluffs are, the less often they have to work, but obviously if they're too cheap, it reduces the chance of them working.

TPTP123

Lambert pretty much sums it perfectly, so when we min raise the BB from SB HU we're wagering 75p to win 75p "in a vacuum" it only needs to work 50% of the time, ie BB needs to fold more than 50% of his hands which obv most decent players will... until about the 4th time you do it out of 4 opportunities and then they adjust. 

In theory this is pretty damn sexy but if you think about the circumstances we're in post flop ALWAYS being OOP its prob very bad for our game unless we're a postflop god.