tricky river spot

jams88

Don't particularly like playing shot handed but as every time i try and play a table at nl40 it breaks down within 10mins i seem to be getting stuck with it alot had better get better.
Thoughts on my line, am i only getting shoved on by a 9 here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jams88	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£37.05
guernsey29	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£63.28
	Your hole cards	A 4
carpinon	Fold
jams88	Raise		£1.00	£1.60	£36.05
guernsey29	Call		£0.80	£2.40	£62.48
Flop
		9 4 4
jams88	Bet		£1.80	£4.20	£34.25
guernsey29	Call		£1.80	£6.00	£60.68
Turn
		J
jams88	Bet		£4.80	£10.80	£29.45
guernsey29	Call		£4.80	£15.60	£55.88
River
		9
jams88	Bet		£7.20	£22.80	£22.25
guernsey29	Raise		£37.20	£60.00	£18.68

grantorino

Why are you betting river?

As played fold

Lambert180

I don't think you should bet the river but it's a definite fold once u get raised

waynec

IMO check call the river here unless he jams, as played its a fold here!

Pipunch

consider check calling

i don't think a J or even any other pair is gonna pay you off on that board

Unknown

Check calling is pretty dreadful, there are no missed draws to bluff with so he has to be value betting when he bets. 

As played, bet river bigger, now fold.

Edit: Mind is boggled by everyone who says don't bet river.

Pipunch

if he's never bluffing then what's the point in betting ourselves? what worse is ever going to pay off a bet? a J? on a double paired board? at least with the J in his hand/overs he can bluff thinking he has the best hand once he sees us shut down on the river. firing a bet out only allows him to reraise and puts us in this spot where we could possibly fold the best hand. check calling keeps the pot small when we're unsure. no?

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

if he's never bluffing then what's the point in betting ourselves? what worse is ever going to pay off a bet? a J? on a double paired board? at least with the J in his hand/overs he can bluff thinking he has the best hand once he sees us shut down on the river
Posted by Pipunch

what what

Pipunch

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

In Response to Re: tricky river spot : what what
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

what i mean is he could be genuinely thinking he's betting for value

if he's never got complete air then surely we can just check call hoping he's betting with worse but thinking he has the best hand. sometimes a hand that isn't JJ or 9x can be betting if we shut down on the river

or is it always completely impossible that someone could make that mistake?

surely AJ KJ AA KK QQ could feel they might have the best hand if we shut down on the river because we look like we're scared of the house

if we check call we're wasting that bet if we're wrong, but by betting we're wasting that bet and all the others we've already put in if we don't even get to showdown.

i'm putting my thoughts down, not saying i'm right, no need for your pointless comment really

Unknown

My mind continues to boggle. You think its more likely that villain, who is trying to keep the pot small, will now lead out for value with your assigned range, than he is to call a river bet with the exact same range? Not only do I expect him to snap me off with Jx+, Im excpecting to get paid by 66/77/88/TT here, and the occasional A high.

No offence intended Pipunch, but your logic is contradicting itself.

Pipunch

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

My mind continues to boggle. You think its more likely that villain, who is trying to keep the pot small, will now lead out for value with your assigned range, than he is to call a river bet with the exact same range? Not only do I expect him to snap me off with Jx+, Im excpecting to get paid by 66/77/88/TT here, and the occasional A high. No offence intended Pipunch, but your logic is contradicting itself.
Posted by CoxyLboro

where did i say it's more likely?

and like i said i'm putting my thoughts down, not saying i'm right. i would rather get to showdown cheaply than to risk being raised and having to fold what could be the best hand. you're saying villain is NEVER EVER raising worse than we have on the river?

and let your mind boggle, i don't know if you've not noticed but i'm not a professional poker player like you, so no need to be a douchebag about it really if my opinion on the hand is wrong then that's how i learn to get better. incase you're blind to question marks my original response to you was full of questions, not statements

rancid

b/f spot

you don't have to have a 4 or a 9

if oppo raises - bluff or not - u decide

don't let worse check behind<<--- important bit - letting oppo's play perfectly against us is so bad for us

Unknown

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

In Response to Re: tricky river spot : where did i say it's more likely? and like i said i'm putting my thoughts down, not saying i'm right. i would rather get to showdown cheaply than to risk being raised and having to fold what could be the best hand. you're saying villain is NEVER EVER raising worse than we have on the river? and let your mind boggle, i don't know if you've not noticed but i'm not a professional poker player like you, so no need to be a douchebag about it really if my opinion on the hand is wrong then that's how i learn to get better. incase you're blind to question marks my original response to you was full of questions, not statements
Posted by Pipunch

You are never getting raised by worse (about 97% true, always have to account for someone playing AA weirdly)

Sorry for coming across badly, it's not intentional, I was just surprised to see so many people saying check river.

I'm glad you are taking the time to learn, and good discussions like this will help a lot, so I'll wear my humility hat for the rest of this thread

CrazyBen23

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

Check calling is pretty dreadful, there are no missed draws to bluff with so he has to be value betting when he bets.  As played, bet river bigger, now fold. Edit: Mind is boggled by everyone who says don't bet river.
Posted by CoxyLboro

Think some people just agree with whoever posts the first reply in fear of making themselves look stupid, or atleast you think, unless they go around only betting with the nuts #facepalm

scotty77

What coxy said.

Bet folding miles miles better than check calling.

NColley

In Response to Re: tricky river spot:

Why are you betting river? As played fold
Posted by grantorino

Why wouldn't you bet river?

OP why'd you change bet sizing on river? It can be a tell.

percival09

c/c only good here when there are misses draws and villain is likely to bluff at it. if youre checking you should be checking to fold imo and i'd probs b/f like £10

jams88

Well im glad that some people don't hate betting this river as it looked like i had it completely wrong for a abit there. In hindsight i the bet is abit out of sync with my line. Unintentianlly i think this makes my hand look stronger so have to fold when riased here as unlikely to be a bluff. Think 10-12 would have been a better amount though looking back.