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Sounds silly but is there anyway of folding this on this flop?
opponent is never raising light i dont with with jacks less so it can only be aq ak aa or same hand as me PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceKING2600Small blind £0.10£0.10£22.05ravidixo07Big blind £0.20£0.30£9.49 Your hole cardsKK donkeyplopRaise £0.60£0.90£19.40cityslickeFold haidyboyFold IDONKCALLURaise £1.80£2.70£15.85KING2600Fold ravidixo07Fold donkeyplopRaise £4.00£6.70£15.40IDONKCALLUCall £2.80£9.50£13.05Flop 6QQ donkeyplopBet £4.75£14.25£10.65IDONKCALLUCall £4.75£19.00£8.30Turn 4 donkeyplopAll-in £10.65£29.65£0.00
Comments
why are you flatting pre? get it in. by calling you're only gonna see flops where you think it's safe and then do your money against AA or it's easy for an A, J or Q to fold where you have to start assuming he could have setted up which means you're never gonna be sure. i would jam pre cause i'm never laying K's down, and if he's got the AA then w/e
sometimes you're wrong to fold but i think too often we're going broke here to make it +EV
if you're calling the flop what are you expecting to see on the turn? if you think he's bluffing which is hardly ever gonna be the case then you have to keep calling and if not then just lay it down on the flop cause there are 2 cards left in the deck that you're happy to see on the turn
the ONLY thing you beat that i think he could be doing this with is AK and he picked up the flush draw on the turn but still don't think it's gonna happen enough to make it profitable. think 9/10 times here we get stacked. as someone famous once said 'the 4bet is usually aces' so i'm gonna say he had the bullets
running some numbers, you're about a 60/40 shot pre against his 4bet range, on the flop you're a massive underdog assuming his range is something like AA-QQ AKs AQs
in play i shove pre, in play on the flop i would probably call down because im spewy and wouldn't be bothered working out ranges and such
if the exact same situation arose without a time limit counting you down and having 15 seconds to work it all out it's an easy fold. it's probably those that are able to make these tough laydowns that are bigger winners because they never lose big when it's -EV but still unfoldable to 99% of people
What do you think oppo thinks you flat a 4 bet with ?
You can't set mine
Does oppo 4 bet QQ/JJ and your hoping he stacks on 8 high flop
If it's a 8 high flop you get it in anyway and if oppo turns AA - same result
just shove pre )
If you shoves what does oppo call with, or do you think oppo thinks you only going to shove AA
Well he does now )
as played call down and laugh then sigh when oppo turns AQ
gg
I must have been away too long.............
If you're going to flat the 4-bet pre-flop it has to be because you think he's going to fold some of his 4-bet range to a 5-bet. That means his 4-bet range has to be alot broader than AA, KK, QQ or AK. If he's 4-betting those hands, it's to get it in.
So you need to have some history with the opponent to think that he perceives your 3-betting range to be very wide, so he can 4-bet bluff, and he must believe you can now call the 4-bet with a wider range than KK or AA. If that history doesn't exist, then in a vacuum we should assume that oppo's 4-betting range is only AA, KK, QQ and AK and should get it in pre-flop.
As played, you've flatted the 4-bet to allow him to continue bluffing you and to give QQ and AK the chance to fire on good boards for you. A Queen-high board is obviously bad because it makes a set for QQ, but with two Queens on the flop we should be less concerned about that. Now you have to call down, as that was the plan when calling the pre-flop 4-bet.
I wouldn't like calling the flop then folding the turn. That would be terrible in my eyes. With £8 back and £19 in the middle, we know that our opponent is going to put the rest in when we call the flop. For calling the 4-bet pre-flop to be correct we have to think that our opponent is going to be able to put us on hands like JJ, TT, 99 or AK type hands.
So if his pre-flop 4-betting range is wider than AK, AA, KK and QQ and if he perceives your calling range to be wider than AA and KK, then your pre-flop call is fine. Having done that, you have to call him down on this board. (Though obviously this is a tighther decision than if the board had come something like 776 instead of QQ6. More of a wide pre-flop 4-betting range is going to contain a Queen than a 7 and there are more draws that could continue on a board like 776. Still, I think you've got to call him down)
IDCU says himself that he's never 4betting light so why compound the pre flop mistake? KK is miles behind the 4bet range on that board from the description of villain so you don't HAVE to call down just cause you've called pre. that's just like saying 'you've made your bed now you have to lie in it' when we don't have to at all, we can fold and not make the same mistake pre next time. on that board against a looser 3bet range we have less than 25% equity. even if you add in JJ you're still behind
The whole idea is that the opponent can be 4-betting us light and believes that we may be calling that pre-flop 4-bet light. If that's the case, then we get more value by flatting the 4-bet pre-flop and allowing him to fire with those bluffing hands to gain extra value than we would by forcing him to fold all those hands pre-flop.
Those are the reasons why you would flat that pre-flop 4-bet. If this dynamic of light 4-betting doesn't exist, then there's no reason to flat the pre-flop 4-bet at all. As I said; in a vacuum you should just get it in pre-flop.
If you've got to the flop with someone who has a tight 4-betting range then the mistake was pre-flop. If you've got to the flop against someone with a wide 4-betting range, then folding post-flop would be a mistake. There's no situation where you can play the hand flawlessly and fold post flop on a safe'ish board.
"If you're going to flat the 4-bet pre-flop it has to be because you think he's going to fold some of his 4-bet range to a 5-bet. That means his 4-bet range has to be alot broader than AA, KK, QQ or AK. If he's 4-betting those hands, it's to get it in.
"So you need to have some history with the opponent to think that he perceives your 3-betting range to be very wide, so he can 4-bet bluff, and he must believe you can now call the 4-bet with a wider range than KK or AA. If that history doesn't exist, then in a vacuum we should assume that oppo's 4-betting range is only AA, KK, QQ and AK and should get it in pre-flop."
This makes the post pretty clear. You can't take a single sentence or a couple of words, remove them from the context of the entire post, and then suggest they mean something else.
Telling IDCU what we think his mistakes were in this particular hand isn't helpful or relevant. Suggesting what he can do in similar spots in future is helpful and relevant.
The next time he's facing a 4-bet holding KK he needs to know whether his opponent is 4-betting a tight or a wide range. If he thinks his opponent can be wide, then calling can be fine but folding on a safe board would then be a mistake. If his opponent is only ever 4-betting strong hands then it would be a mistake to call and he should look to get it in pre-flop.
...unless of course he's never seen the guy 4-bet at all in thosands of hands without AA. Which would be a pretty good argument for either folding to the 4-bet or not 3-betting at all.
as played means as it was played, which means we go to a flop. you then said we should call it down. as played is coupled with the context of the hand, not your forum post
again no.
people dont learn from being told what to do. highlighting his mistakes so he can understand WHY they're mistakes is better than just saying 'on this board do this'
although i fully understand you're a forum 'reg' and therefore your nonsense will be treated as gospel even though you're completely wrong
However, if you keep insulting and belittling people as you have done here and before, you'll find that nobody cares to listen to you.
you made a statement about having to call down cause the board paired QQ which makes QQ in his hand less likely. i can copy and paste it for you if you want.
i'm not bothered if anyone listens to me. i can agree with you for the sake of being accepted by the forum, or i can call you out on the nonsense you're peddling, if only just to get a better handle on it for myself so i can actually get a sense of what you're trying to say.
is that how it works here then? you come out with rubbish, i directly quote you, you then basically dispute it and make some underhanded comment about my previous posts to try and divert the attention?
Your response was to then suggest that as I'm a forum "reg" my words would be treated as "gospel" even though I'm "completely wrong". I imagine you can see how these words are belittling. Besides which, if my word were treated as gospel, I wouldn't have been involved in many previous debates across many, many threads with the likes of grantorino, lambert, percival, rancid, IDCU etc... On none of those occasions have any of the other forum "regs" felt the need to nitpick over particular words which were used once, explained, clarified and clarified again. Nor have they ever suggested that others would agree with them or anyone else, simply because the person in question is a forum reg. It should also be noted that I have never met any of the mentioned players. The only reason I or anyone else listens to them is that they put a great deal of effort into offering their opinion and doing so in a respectful, non-confrontational manner.
On the other hand you have been involved on numerous occasions in posting confrontational, sometimes insulting comments. This is why several people have suggested to you that you need to dial it down a bit. If you think someone is "peddling nonsense", the way to express it is to say "I don't agree... Can you clarify... here's my viewpoint." Once that matter is clarified, what need is there to return to it?