Hand#1. Call here?

FlashFlush

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
FlashFlush	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£43.06
x	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£38.81
	Your hole cards	Q Q
bolly580	Fold
VINEY73	Raise		£0.90	£1.35	£28.04
FlashFlush	Raise		£2.55	£3.90	£40.51
x	Raise		£7.20	£11.10	£31.61
VINEY73	Fold
FlashFlush	Call		£4.80	£15.90	£35.71
Flop
		4 J A
FlashFlush	Check
x	Check
Turn
		2
FlashFlush	Check
x	Check
River
		5
FlashFlush	Check
x	Bet		£7.95	£23.85	£23.66
FlashFlush

This guy is a reg at this level, I noticed last night he was 3 and 4 betting with marginal hands but I'm fairly confident they are a winning player.

Should I have folded pre? I think I mis-read the situation here and I thought it was the original raiser wih the 4bet not a seperate player... As it is, would you call here?

jugglegeek

As a rule, don't call 4-bets pre-flop. As always, extenuating circumstances can occur (when you are both really deep and it's a button vs blind situation for example).

In this case it's a pretty large, cold 4-bet. Either the player is capable of cold four-betting as a bluff, in which case 5-bet shove. Or they only do this with QQ+ and AK (more likely) in which case it's better to fold.

As for post flop there isn't a single hand that you beat really. JJ/KK/Ax all have you beat and if they were bluffing pre-flop then that flop is perfect for them to c-bet once you checked to them.

It's sick but sometimes you have to 3-bet-fold with queens if everyone is playing nity ABC poker at you.

FlashFlush

I agree with you. 

I think years of being called a nit has played on my brain :'-(

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Hand#1. Call here?:

As a rule, don't call 4-bets pre-flop. As always, extenuating circumstances can occur (when you are both really deep and it's a button vs blind situation for example). In this case it's a pretty large, cold 4-bet. Either the player is capable of cold four-betting as a bluff, in which case 5-bet shove. Or they only do this with QQ+ and AK (more likely) in which case it's better to fold. As for post flop there isn't a single hand that you beat really. JJ/KK/Ax all have you beat and if they were bluffing pre-flop then that flop is perfect for them to c-bet once you checked to them. It's sick but sometimes you have to 3-bet-fold with queens if everyone is playing nity ABC poker at you.
Posted by jugglegeek

Surely this should read "...in which case flat-call"? Why do we want him to fold his bluffs?

yb

i guess he means if he's 4bet bluffing sometimes then he'll be 4betting wider for value too

DOHHHHHHH

If I was villain and I had KK I would put you specifically on QQ. 

Think he's got Kings. 

Wacko90

Not a good cash player by any means but il throw out an opinion.

Really dont like just flatting a 4-bet pre. If you think your ahead then jam it pre, if you think your behind you fold pre. if you think hes 4-betting a marginal hands then why not go with your previous read and shove? What if your flop is J72 rainbow? Do you c/c or c/r? Your putting yourself in a really awkward spot unless you flop the Q.

If the guys a reg and a winning player then its unlikely he doing this with ak or less and definitly not jj or less so its a fold for me. River is 100% a fold. His flop check is either AA and wanting you to move or kk scared of the ace. hence his river "value bet". Fold pre, as played fold river. IMO

percival09

Yh I'd only ever flat his 4b here if you think he's 4betting super light and is unlikely to get it in if you 5bet shove. Only reason I would call his 4b is if I know he's capable of 4betting super light and is likely to cbet w/ air on any board, and in which case I'd call him down on any board, but without correct info I think it's 5b or fold

donkeyplop

You are only really beating 10s here, of a mad bluff.

beaneh

if you're comfortable folding this river as played then flatting is fine. get it in if you're not.

FlashFlush

Cheers for the help on the hands I put up guys... Looking back at the hands in black and white I knew I'd got my decisions wrong, I think I just rushed everything last night and was just clicking buttons blind folded!

Like I said above, I think years of being seen as a tight/nit has played on my mind and I try and get active a bit more, and call down hands light but in the wrong spots.

GL on the tables all