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Min betting - head scratching time!
I'm just after peoples thoughts on the use (or misuse) of min betting by players and what you read into it.
I know we see this a lot on 861 and all the analysts/experts roll their eyes and scratch their heads when it happens.
I have a few theories , but i'm no expert so would like some feedback please.
1. Min bet to induce a raise?
2. Min bet to see where you are in a hand?
3. Just lazy and can't be bothered to use the slider bar for betting?
I play mainly Low stakes DYM's and the Monday night DTD.
Get quite a lot of min betting in the DYM's but very little in the DTD's, is this because more experienced players are playing on the DTD tables?
All this leads to another (related) subject (raise sizing).
When someone min bets into a big pot , and you feel you have the best hand , would your raise size be relative to their bet size or relative to the pot size?
Thanks
Mick
I know we see this a lot on 861 and all the analysts/experts roll their eyes and scratch their heads when it happens.
I have a few theories , but i'm no expert so would like some feedback please.
1. Min bet to induce a raise?
2. Min bet to see where you are in a hand?
3. Just lazy and can't be bothered to use the slider bar for betting?
I play mainly Low stakes DYM's and the Monday night DTD.
Get quite a lot of min betting in the DYM's but very little in the DTD's, is this because more experienced players are playing on the DTD tables?
All this leads to another (related) subject (raise sizing).
When someone min bets into a big pot , and you feel you have the best hand , would your raise size be relative to their bet size or relative to the pot size?
Thanks
Mick
Comments
I know we see this a lot on 861 and all the analysts/experts roll their eyes and scratch their heads when it happens.
I need to clarify/correct that Mick.
Firstly, I hope the Analysts NEVER "roll their eyes", though, on occasion, yes, there is some head-scratching.
There is nothing wrong with Min-Raising whatsoever, but it is best used when the circumstances are correct. Late in Tourneys, when the blinds are big, & most pots go heads up, it is almost standard.
But very often, a min-raise is spectacularly bad.
Say, for example, on a 6 handed table, we have A-A on the Button, & the three players in front of us all limp. We now min-raise. What can we now expect to happen? It is almost certain that both Blinds will call - look at the price they are getting! - & so will the three limpers. We now have Aces in a 6 way pot. When they hold, lovely, but we have substantially reduced their probability of winning.
A better min-raise - imo - is suited connectors on the button. The more players, & money, in this pot, the better. We WANT them to call.
So the key question is - when we min-raised, was the purpose REALLY to get 5 callers? If it was, fine. If it was not, then no.
My repeated point has never changed. Min-Raising is fine, but DO IT FOR A REASON, & remember the possible consequences. If we min-raise, we are generally asking for folks to call. Heads-Up, yes please. Multi-way, depends on the hand.
Apologies for the "roll their eyes" comment.
Just as an aside there is one point that i think you made ages ago on 861 that has always stuck with me in how i play and has been very useful in my learning process.
It is : "what do you want your opponent to do?"
Thanks again
Mick
"what do we want our opponents to do?" is, well worth considering.
When we bet, we MUST BET FOR A REASON.
We can bet to deceive.
We can bet to increase the size of the pot.
We can bet to protect our hand.
We can bet to get paid more.
We can bet to price other players in - or out.
We can bet to thin the field, to push the limpers out.
We can bet with air, to squeeze.
Plenty of other reasons, too.
The key thing - in my opinion - is decide WHY we want to bet, before we bet, then bet accordingly. It sounds obvious, but not everyone has that thought process. To the Big Boys, 10 Tabling away, it is instinctive, but to many, less experienced, just trying to have fun at little cost, it may not occur to them.
Your raise size should always be relevant to the pot, because it's all about the odds you are offering him.
For instance, if the opponent bets 40 into a 600 pot, and you raise to 160, yes that's 4 times his bet but the pot was 600 + his 40 + your 160, so he has to call an extra 120 to win 800 which are pretty tasty odds (not what you want to be offering).
It comes back to "why are we betting?"
Every time we bet, we must, instinctively or deliberately, ask that question. What are we trying to make the other player(s) do? Keep them, or force them out? We want to force BETTER hands to fold, & WORSE hands to call. From that, we can better decide how much to bet.
If you ever read or hear "you must always bet xBB", ignore it, it is wrong. It is situational.
Cheers
There are so many variables at work here, & in my personal opinion, that should include opening bet size.
If you were down to, say, 14xBB, & you found 4-4 on the Button & three limpers, 2x is NOT going to be optimal. Arguably, 14xBB is best here. Which may or may not be wrong, but I very much doubt there is a valid argument for 2X in this spot.
It just depends.....
He was saying that if he has a small pocket pair in the blinds (with a reasonable, 30BB+ stack not 14BB as iin Tikay's example) and it's limped to him, he will make the min-raise to bump the pot up. His thoughts are that he doubles the pot for the time he hits his set and can lead out on the flop without it setting off alarm bells because he has the betting lead. It also virtually guarantees still seeing the flop multi-way.
I have to admit that he had a point but my argument against this was that it would be extremely tough to balance his range: He would never min-raise from the blinds with big value hands such as AA, KK, AK, AQ, nor would he do so as a pure steal with a junky hand. Basically I feel he turns his hand face-up when he does this and shows everyone he has a small or medium pocket pair. It may well be, if lots of players are limping, that the other players at the table are not going to be experienced enough to realise his range is so narrow, though.
I'll often open the betting in MTTs with a min-raise, even in the early stages. If I choose to do so I'll be consistent and continue use the same bet size for my entire range until the table breaks.
Of course if my table is full of calling stations I'll tighten-up and open bigger.
Why open with a min-raise?
1. With the top of my range I'm more likely to get a call from a dominated hand, or induce a 3-bet from a dominated hand.
2. With the bottom of my range it buys a cheap flop.
3. If I get 3-bet off the bottom of my range it costs me less.
4. It will allow me to play more pots, good news when I feel I have an edge on my table post-flop.
5. If the BB has a junk hand, say 8/3o, they're going to fold to any open, so my steals are cheaper.
Scenario for discussion:
1 limper , rest fold .
you raise x2.5/x3 (holding KQo)
limper calls.
flop dealt (3,3,10 rainbow)
limper min bets.
What next???
Its this type of situation i find myself in a lot.
generaly min betting is poor play at the start of a mtt for instance:
theres no value, if you min raise the pots are going to be small and everyone is going to call you so anyone can hit anything and you have no information and put yourself at risk and the aim if you have a good hand is get max chips off your opponent and thin the field.
When you see players min raise every street they are either week with a 2nd or 3rd pair or fishing.
It could be to enduce a bet and reraising them will tell you if there trapping or not dont make it easy for fish to chase down there draws or 2 pairs make them pay for it dont make it cheap.
Some do it if your utg and they have position on you just to see if you fold or flat because you have missed the flop and so have they. You see a lot of min raises on the flop you flat call and then they min bet the turn river comes and then they shove and its then impossible to know what they have. Re raising them before the river by asking questions on the flop and turn will give you more infomation.
Some do it because they are affraid of draws and think they are ahead but wont make a move until the turn if it comes a blank. This is bad because by min raising you may as well just check and let them see a free card anyway as no one is going to fold to a min raise if there drawing to a flush or st8.
As tk pointed out there are cases to min raise and that is either because you want to build the pot and have multiple players in because you have hit big or have emplied odds to hit big so you suck players in and enduce a reraise or bluff from someone.
Ask yourself if someone min raises and you flat call them, what information are you giving them! That means either you are week or chasing! if you are trapping calling a min raise isnt going to get you max value as if they are the type of player to min raise again on a draw and they miss and min raise again you reraise and they fold and it costs them nothing and you didnt make the max out of that player for missing his draw.
If you are the player min raising you are either week, drawing or have missed! Or there doing it because they know you will have been aggressive and want to enduce a reraise.
This is why raising a decent amount pre and post stops these min raisers playing like this as they know if there going to be in a hand with you or fish its not going to be cheap for them. And you ask them a real question and they think twice about being in the hand with you or make mistakes because you are putting the pressure on them.
Later stages of a torny its completely differenct as blinds are big and each hand your in could be for a large amount so you have to use your chiips a lot more wisley and a min raise then can mean you are very strong.
There are reasons for doing it and reasons for not doing it. But as a rule i find its not a good practice. Check your notes on the players that do it and watch other hands there in where they have done it and make notes. Plus position is key with these types of players.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response.
Cheers
Mick
I can see the benefits in mtts in the late stages but doesn't make sense in cash?????