Flopped Bottom Set: Fold or Call

Padzz77

I've made a conscious decision to call less, and it has been working out quite well.  (I must have been far too loose prevously).

However, I could not resist this call. 

Right or wrong?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Padzz77	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£7.62
P1	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£4.92
	Your hole cards	3 3
buggys	Fold
Bigd706	Fold
Buzz444	Fold
P2	Call		£0.08	£0.20	£4.95
Padzz77	Call		£0.04	£0.24	£7.58
P1	Check
Flop
		6 3 5
Padzz77	Bet		£0.12	£0.36	£7.46
P1	All-in		£4.92	£5.28	£0.00

Padzz77

Sorry, I should add that P2 folded.

GREGHOGG

Why would u ever fold?

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Flopped Bottom Set: Fold or Call:

Why would u ever fold?
Posted by GREGHOGG

Yeah, i couldnt bring myself to fold, so i didnt.

But I thought he would either turn over a better set or else the straight.

I thought my very best expectation would be that he would have a pair and a straight draw.

Was I being too pessimistic about what he should have?

TommyD

Calling on the flop with a set is never calling too loosely IMO.  You need some unreal reads and history to even consider using any other button than the middle one.

Other than what beats us you'll see him have lots of flush draws, random straight draws, two pair and one pair hands, and on the odd occasion two overs.

Call.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Flopped Bottom Set: Fold or Call:

Calling on the flop with a set is never calling too loosely IMO.  You need some unreal reads and history to even consider using any other button than the middle one. Other than what beats us you'll see him have lots of flush draws, random straight draws, two pair and one pair hands, and on the odd occasion two overs. Call.
Posted by TommyD

Turned out he just had an overpair, QQ, which fits in with your comments.

He certainly succeeded in confusing me, and I very nearly folded.  It just seemed like he must be stronger, or else why risk so much for so little gain if I folded.

CUFCrp90

Hope this doesn't sound too harsh but I really hate the way both of you have played this hand. It folds round to you in the SB and you have a pocket pair. This is more than good enough to raise against the BB who is committed to the hand with a range of any two random cards. Furthermore your opponent deserves to lose the hand and his money for checking QQ there. Criminal!

To explain why the Villain played it so badly, checking to shove a flop with QQ is poor because when you likely fold, he wins 8p from his monster hand. And on any flop where he just goes all in, you're only really calling with a hand that beats him, which you did, so well done. Your 33 set wasn't the nuts but it might as well have been because your opponent was so weak. Strength by shoving = weak, he wouldn't just shove if he made the straight because you'd fold. And OK he had QQ but it was one pair at the end of the day.

And nevertheless if you're only going to call preflop with a pair of 3's just to fold when you make the set why bother playing it? Other than the set you're really drawing thin against a range of any two cards so you have to go with it.

Think about your opponents range for minraising pre. Ax-suited, A9+-offsuit, pocket pairs, suited connectors. Thats a lot of hands. Hundreds. And the only ones that beat you out of them are 66, 55, or a frankly rediculous 47. Of course he could be doing that with the diamond draw but can you justify folding a made hand just because he may be drawing to something better?

jugglegeek

I don't think you can go far wrong at NL4 if you alway assume that a flopped set is the nuts and play accordingly. Yes you are beat by 42, 47, 55 and 66. But because the board is so drawy, because it's NL4 and people love to over play TPTK/over pairs otf, and because the bet is such a rediculous over-bet. Just to call every time regardless of reads will make this +ev over time

Lambert180

Yeah easiest call ever pre to set-mine, then I'm snapping them off on the flop.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Flopped Bottom Set: Fold or Call:

Hope this doesn't sound too harsh but I really hate the way both of you have played this hand. It folds round to you in the SB and you have a pocket pair. This is more than good enough to raise against the BB who is committed to the hand with a range of any two random cards. Furthermore your opponent deserves to lose the hand and his money for checking QQ there. Criminal! To explain why the Villain played it so badly, checking to shove a flop with QQ is poor because when you likely fold, he wins 8p from his monster hand. And on any flop where he just goes all in, you're only really calling with a hand that beats him, which you did, so well done. Your 33 set wasn't the nuts but it might as well have been because your opponent was so weak. Strength by shoving = weak, he wouldn't just shove if he made the straight because you'd fold. And OK he had QQ but it was one pair at the end of the day. And nevertheless if you're only going to call preflop with a pair of 3's just to fold when you make the set why bother playing it? Other than the set you're really drawing thin against a range of any two cards so you have to go with it. Think about your opponents range for minraising pre. Ax-suited, A9+-offsuit, pocket pairs, suited connectors. Thats a lot of hands. Hundreds. And the only ones that beat you out of them are 66, 55, or a frankly rediculous 47. Of course he could be doing that with the diamond draw but can you justify folding a made hand just because he may be drawing to something better?
Posted by CUFCrp90

It doesnt sound too harsh at all.  Thanks for taking the time to reply.

FWIW, I called in the SB because I couldnt really see an advantage of raising.  Possibly both might fold and I take down 16p.  But if BB folds, and button re-raises, then things dont look to rosy.  Besides, if I hit my set I want them both left in, and if I miss my set I am almost certainly folding.

"if you're only going to call preflop with a pair of 3's just to fold when you make the set why bother playing it?"

Yeah, I was hoping to hit a set and then win the pot.  I wasnt gonna try and win it any other way (other than maybe calling a tiny river bet if flop and turn were checked), and would have folded to most bets if I had missed.

The only reason I considered folding is that I thought he might have hit a better set, or a straight, and was worried about the diamonds.

I didnt really think he was doing it as a semi-bluff, because he might have been losing value that way.  But then I couldnt really figure out any hand that he might do it with.  In retrospect, maybe he thought I had a pair with an Ace kicker, and he was hoping I might call and lose (best scenario for him) or fold, and therefore not outdraw him.  Or maybe he was trying to balance his range for when he does flop a straight or a set and moves all in.

Either way, I was very confused and thought it was probably wrong to call.  I was expecting the Clinic to say it should have been a fold.  So I'm glad to find out that I accidentally made the right decision.  Obviously I still have a lot to learn

grantorino

I prefer c/r flop. When he shoves it's a fist pump call