5k bounty hunter soz forgot to post all the info is isolation shove right move?

IDONKCALLU

spleen1981Small blind 75.0075.003973.75launderBig blind 150.00225.008152.50 Your hole cards10A   matt863583Fold    keezoAll-in 864.001089.000.00kallia1717Fold    IDONKCALLUAll-in 4145.005234.000.00spleen1981Fold    launderFold   

YOUNG_GUN

pretty huge shove here, you can min re-raise here imo

IDONKCALLU

but that leaves me commited so might aswell shove or not ?

DOHHHHHHH

I think the blinds probably ship the same range if we flat or min-raise. Dnt get what min raising achieves really.

Flat or shove 4 me..... 

You can trust launder not to go mental for a £30 bounty. He's not guna be interested like most players.

Just flat and fold to shoves/raises behind imo.

YOUNG_GUN

Your not commited, its a tough one but the shoves wway too big. You could call in theory , maybe slightly better actually!

Dont go all out for bountie, if we call and someone shoves over the top we know we are beat. If we shove altho we isolate them we are also putting our own tournament at risk unneessary. If you had like 3k then shove is fine

bearlyther

If we smooth call i think Launder could shove any 2 here in this spot as if you fold he has to call with any 2 has the guy as shoved for 5 bigs.  I might smooth call here to induce a shove from Launder then SNAP him off his range would be super wide in this spot which we would have crushed!

DOHHHHHHH

Ha. ^^^

Total opposite of what I said/think! sigh.

I think Launders jamming range over our flat here is guna be very predictable!

AQ+ TT+ maybe. 

Why would he shove any 2 here? Does he want a £35 bounty that badly? 

IDONKCALLU

+ 1 to bearlyther imo

DOHHHHHHH

If launder is shoving any 2 when we flat, flat!  obvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

waller02

I'm with dohhhh.....funny old game

IDONKCALLU

but im taking that move away from him by shoving 

in game i know flat to induce a shove from launder BUT  when u flat and if launder does jam u doubt yaself and id prob fold

DOHHHHHHH

Flatting to induce a shove is ridiculous AT is nowhere strong enough and launder is nowhere near stupid enough to ship any 2 over an all in player and a call. 

c'mon....................

You guys aren't being seriousssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 

IDONKCALLU

dohhhh ave u seen him play he got moves like jaggar

DOHHHHHHH

I'm scratching my head here, literally, rubbing my eyes. This is mental even for you. 

Ok.....

Shorty shoves. 

You flat call. 

Sb folds.

What (in your opinion) is launders shoving range in this spot? Give me hands.................

Lambert180

This is ridic, Doh is obv right. There's no way Launder is jamming this deep on you for a £30 bounty when theres like £1500 up top without a hand that crushes you.

LOL_RAISE

flat and fold to shove

Unknown

When you flat a shove, it looks like you are trying to get action behind you. When it looks like you are trying to get action behind you, people don't monkey-spew shove any 2 cards. Launder in particular will not monkey-spew shove any two cards because hes got a couple of braincells that work in tandem with one another occasionally. Not only that, but it's for 30bb effective, which makes it borderline insanity to shove light here.

If you snapped a shove from him, I'd bet £1k you'd be behind (in this situation).

Flat, and fold to a reshove

bearlyther

Basically if we flat were saying to Launder that we have an average hand and its ok for us to call the shove for 5bbs for the bounty.  A thinking player like Launder will then say to himself ok so he wants to call this 5 big blind allin for the bounty but he wont be prepared to call my allin for his whole tourney. 

Its a profitable jam for Launder in this spot with any 2 cards if he thinks idonkcallu is only calling the 5 bb shove for the sake of the bounty.  A thinking player like Launder will be playing the situation in this spot not his cards.  You have to let people hang themselves sometimes. 

Unknown

We are probably going to have to agree to disagree here. It's not 'profitable' to ship 30bb because you 'might' have a hand that can't call a shove. But on the other hand, you might have AQ/AK TT+, and he could be crushed. No thinking player defends their 1bb contribution to a pot by shoving 30bb to get into a pot with 2 random cards to win 11.5bb when they already have a decent sized stack

IDONKCALLU

why flat n fold to a shove isnt that wasting 1k of my chips when i only have 4k stack and isnt just flatting a raise opening myself up to get shoved on ?

and as i dnt play many big buy in events aint launder gonna pick on this if i just flat n think i can put pressure on him here by shoving light ?

Unknown

A 5bb raise all in and call is sufficient pressure to make him fold hands that you don't really want in there (QJ, KQ etc). You are actually trying to save chips - if he folds just as often when you flat or raise, then raising just means you lose all your chips when he wakes up with a real hand in the blinds. And instead of blowing 800 chips, youve in fact blown 4.5k chips and your tournament life. I know which I'd prefer!

IDONKCALLU

ok thanks coxy for your input 

is it a silly question then coz i think alot of people would shove and alot of people would do what u say n just call but fold to a shove 

bearlyther

I dont think idonkcallu would ever flat with aq,tt,ak in this spot as he would 3 bet pre with all these hands so i think Launder can exclude them from idonkcallus range.  I just think that Launder will get the jam through so many times in this spot as the flat call here in this spot is not going to want to call 2 allins.  Bear in mind that if idonkcallu folded pre Launder had to call the shorties jam with any 2 cards.  So therefore if Launders jam is going to get through here so much hes putting out 5bbs to win 15 and also the £50 bounty. I just think this is a really interesting spot given the dynamic of the situation.

Unknown

In Response to Re: 5k bounty hunter soz forgot to post all the info is isolation shove right move?:

ok thanks coxy for your input  is it a silly question then coz i think alot of people would shove and alot of people would do what u say n just call but fold to a shove 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

It's not a silly question at all, but I think there is a theory that Launder is making a move here more often than I realistically think he is.

Curt360x27

It is so unlikely for Launder to make a move and jam over your flat call as the risk/reward ratio makes it so worthless. I like flatting and folding to a shove knowing we are going to be behind.

PiAnOpLaYa

In Response to Re: 5k bounty hunter soz forgot to post all the info is isolation shove right move?:

I dont think idonkcallu would ever flat with aq,tt,ak in this spot as he would 3 bet pre with all these hands so i think Launder can exclude them from idonkcallus range.  I just think that Launder will get the jam through so many times in this spot as the flat call here in this spot is not going to want to call 2 allins.  Bear in mind that if idonkcallu folded pre Launder had to call the shorties jam with any 2 cards.  So therefore if Launders jam is going to get through here so much hes putting out 5bbs to win 15 and also the £50 bounty. I just think this is a really interesting spot given the dynamic of the situation.
Posted by bearlyther

Hasn't he still got to have a hand that beats the all in player otherwise he's just tripling them up? 

If IDCU had just flat the all in how us it profitable for launder to jam any 2? He may get IDCU to fold but still has to win the hand? 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 5k bounty hunter soz forgot to post all the info is isolation shove right move?:

In Response to Re: 5k bounty hunter soz forgot to post all the info is isolation shove right move? : Hasn't he still got to have a hand that beats the all in player otherwise he's just tripling them up?  If IDCU had just flat the all in how us it profitable for launder to jam any 2? He may get IDCU to fold but still has to win the hand? 
Posted by PiAnOpLaYa

846 for launder to call to win a pot of 1,950, so he only needs about 27% equity (I think) to make a good call (ignoring bounty equity) if he knows IDCU is 100% folding to a shove.

So even with 23o he's getting the right price.......

So if IDCU is gtd to fold, it wud be a profitable jam for launder w/any 2. 

equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied

Hand 0:  70.593%   70.09%  00.50%      5804247528   41327028.00   { 22+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, 98s, A3o+, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }

Hand 1:  29.407%   28.91%  00.50%      2393800560   41327028.00   { 32o }

simonnatur

Surely a flat call from IDCU can also be a monster hand and the blinds have to factor this in ? These hands don't come round often enough to want to limit ourslves to isolating a short stacked shove in order to play a 13bb pot.

Additionally, If OP flats and one of the blinds shove, OP is getting about 1.6 / 1 odds to call plus the bounty equity, so surely they can't assume they have much fold equity to shove atc.   

bearlyther

Idonkcall you is not cold calling this 5bb jam with a hand like ak he would 3 bet to isolate as he doesnt want the other 2 players priced in behind him with the added value of the bounty.  Therefore idonkcall you could profitably call this 5 bb jam on the button with a very wide range 8-10, 7-10 ,j10, 65 all being profitable calls as the guy has shoved for 5 bigs.  Therefore idonkcallu could have anything in this spot which makes it a 100% profitable 3 bet jam for Launder to with any 2 cards as the way its played the smooth call on the button is never calling 2 allins.

In a normal tournament then yes i agree 100% as others said call and fold to Launders jam but with the dynamic that its a profitable 3 bet jam for Launder with any 2 given the bounty factor we can snap call and be ahead.  If Launder turns over 64 off and gets there good luck to him rereg next tourney.

unknown_username

Hi idcu
To my mind , it's flat and fold to large resistance. If you get ai'd by one of the others surely AT isn't a strong enough hand to fight that? If you all in shove then whatever will call you , you will be behind for sure so is this a bounty winning tactic. Is so apply the strategy of allowing a certain no of chips for the bounty and do the odds mathemtically. You could still find yourself up against it though. Comes down to your choice. Interesting though...

Now. i'll go back and read the posts to see the correct answers!!! Ha

JSTFLIPPIN

i would shove, then hit the 3 outter gg