Is this the right play?

clubhammer

I figure I'm ahead of most of their ranges, except better flush draws, and maybe take it down as it is.
Is this better than possibly calling to see if I hit?
Also how does rake figure in decision making as that accounts for 7.5% of the pot what equity should I be looking for in this (any other) instance?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
PTeazle	Big blind		£0.04	£0.04	£3.43
	Your hole cards	7 6
magzzy	Raise		£0.08	£0.12	£3.70
slackalice	Call		£0.08	£0.20	£9.47
clubhammer	Call		£0.08	£0.28	£6.22
PTeazle	Raise		£0.16	£0.44	£3.27
magzzy	Call		£0.12	£0.56	£3.58
slackalice	Fold
clubhammer	Call		£0.12	£0.68	£6.10
Flop
		8 2 5
PTeazle	Check
magzzy	Bet		£0.34	£1.02	£3.24
clubhammer	All-in		£6.10	£7.12	£0.00
PTeazle	All-in		£3.27	£10.39	£0.00
magzzy	Fold
clubhammer	Unmatched bet		£2.83	£7.56	£2.83
PTeazle	Show	K K
clubhammer	Show	7 6

percival09

raising to like £1.10 and putting them all in ott > shoving imo just cos it doesnt put our hand so face up. but this prob doesnt make a diff at 4nl lol 

getting it in is fine cos youre always going to be in pretty good shape vs anything really

clubhammer

In Response to Re: Is this the right play?:

raising to like £1.10 and putting them all in ott /> shoving imo just cos it doesnt put our hand so face up. but this prob doesnt make a diff at 4nl lol  getting it in is fine cos youre always going to be in pretty good shape vs anything really
Posted by percival09

Thanks for the reply. The only thing with raising is that if the turn bricks my equity has dropped making future decisions harder,hence the shove.
Also when you say it turns my hand face up I assume villain will put me on 99+ set or good flush draw. I wouldn't be too confident of Getting it in with KK without reads, as the nitty part of me would probably assume a set.
Any comments on these thoughts, and also the question of how rake affects decision making (maybe that should be a separate discussion!)?

Lambert180

Trying to get it in on the flop is fine, but I prefer raising/calling it off, and getting the rest in on the turn if we can't get it in on the flop.

I would never put you on a set because what hand could possibly call you off? another set? or the hand you have. You'd be throwing so much value away doing this with a set. These kinda moves are so often big draws, so I'd probably call you off with KK knowing I'm very rarely gonna be in really bad shape and probably flipping-ish (with money already in the pot).

Also if you think the villian puts you on these monsters 99+, sets etc, then why would you want to do this, why would you want him to fold? Ok you aint got a made hand yet but that's like the best possible flop for your hand without hitting.

I wouldn't worry too much about rake in spots like this, you're not too far off flipping even in the worst possible scenario of him having 88 and tons of the time you'll be a bigger favourite + you have FE obv.

The only reason I'd raise and not jam the flop is cos you should WANT other people to call and you're making it hard for them to have a hand worthy of calling by just jamming (even at 4NL lol)

clubhammer

Thanks Lambert. My comments about the villains possible thought process was more to do with how he might perceive a lot of nl4 players would play a set (you know - you've been there!) I don't think I've played this guy much so doubt he has many reads on me.
The shove was maybe a bit lazy by me because I know I'm gonna struggle to work out the odds quick enough on the turn if it bricks (eg. here it was 6h) to know if I'm fishing or getting it in good. Whereas I'm pretty sure I'm in good shape on the flop.

F_Ivanovic

I prefer calling on the flop at this level because if you hit you're going to get paid, and you're unlikely to get a fold from any good hand by going all in. It's still probably ev+ because you're a favourite against a lot of hands but it's more +ev to just call. 

At a higher level of play though, raising is definitely a good (and often correct) option here.

Spikelad

Hi club in answer to your question i will give you the old "it depends".I play at nl4 and against some opponents this is a definite shove and against others it is a call.There are some opponents at nl4 who will never fold which is great when we have the nuts, but there are others who are good enough to fold to a strong play such as this.

I have been on your table quite a few times so i know  you  know what you are doing and i do like the aggressive line you took here but i think F Ivanovic's answer is very interesting.

Jac35

I think you have played this perfectly.

Other than the first line I pretty much disagree with everything Lambert has written.

Why on earth with a wet board wouldn't you be jamming a set here? Don't understand that theory at all.

You have a monster draw and are in good shape on the flop against pretty much any hand.

However we DON'T mind one bit if they pass. We pick up the pot right now without having to hit and that is never a bad thing.

Lambert180

Imo we don't wanna shove with a set cos the villian still has nearly 100xBB behind, how many hands do people wanna call that big a shove on this flop? Another set, a bunch of VERY unlikely 2prs which are even more unlikely if we have 2 of the cards for a set or like 67s.

Basically, if we have a set we wanna get paid and there are very few hands good enough to call a 100xBB shove on the flop

Jac35

In Response to Re: Is this the right play?:

Imo we don't wanna shove with a set cos the villian still has nearly 100xBB behind, how many hands do people wanna call that big a shove on this flop? Another set, a bunch of VERY unlikely 2prs which are even more unlikely if we have 2 of the cards for a set or like 67s. Basically, if we have a set we wanna get paid and there are very few hands good enough to call a 100xBB shove on the flop
Posted by Lambert180

But in your 1st post on this you said you would happily call this off with kk as you would put him on a draw.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Is this the right play?:

In Response to Re: Is this the right play? : But in your 1st post on this you said you would happily call this off with kk as you would put him on a draw.
Posted by Jac35

Yeah I would call him off with KK cos he shouldnt be shoving with sets imo lol.

That's why we all get caught out sometimes, like ya think to yourself, well he can't have X cos he'd never limp with that, but they have it sometimes, doesn't make it right for them to limp it.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Is this the right play?:

In Response to Re: Is this the right play? : Yeah I would call him off with KK cos he shouldnt be shoving with sets imo lol. That's why we all get caught out sometimes, like ya think to yourself, well he can't have X cos he'd never limp with that, but they have it sometimes, doesn't make it right for them to limp it.
Posted by Lambert180

Yeah, i understand what you're saying.
Personally, in the games i play with the same regs etc, i would probably play top set and this hand in more or less identical ways for balance. Not necessarily all in, but certainly by betting big.

Not trying to row with you by the way, just difference of opinion.