Playing the 'Big Guns'

larry1959

First off, I would just like to say that the UKOPS series was excellent as was the TV coverage, well done Sky Poker.

Although I really enjoyed playing in the UKOPS, I found myself being rather intimidated by playing up against the ' Big Guns' of the Sky Poker site. I tried to think of each tournie as just another tournie and forget who the likes of Yoyo,Dantb10,Maxally, Scotty77, Jakally to name but a few are, as I seemed to get tabled with them throughout.

Knowing they are top players in one respect helped raise my game, but I am sure they picked up on my apprehension/inexperience (which I don't think was given away in my bet sizes which I varied from min raises to 5xBB), but if I got in a hand with them, in which they called my pre flop raise, if I hit the board or had a pocket pair, I would either check raise or bet about 2/3rds of the pot if the board was straightening.. sometimes no probs and I got the fold and took the pot. My problem was when they re-raised back at me, which would have either put me close to all in, i.e holding a decent pockets A/Q off suit and hitting the flop K,10,Q... C/bet the flop around 2/3rd pot size and then raised..so I fold..

I know that some of the 'Big Gun' will shove with air using the flop to play an advantage in position, and use their reputation to 'bully' players off by represesenting premium hands...

Anyone got any tips to get over this 'stigma of respect' for our top players and bite the bullet and shove back or call them...

jonjo75

What about check call sometimes and see if they fire again. Sometimes they will slow down and sometimes not but it also gives you the chance to hit the turn and then let them double barrell you if you do. Of course though it is about mixing it up and not doing the same thing over and over again.

THEROCK573

In Response to Playing the 'Big Guns':

First off, I would just like to say that the UKOPS series was excellent as was the TV coverage, well done Sky Poker. Although I really enjoyed playing in the UKOPS, I found myself being rather intimidated by playing up against the ' Big Guns' of the Sky Poker site. I tried to think of each tournie as just another tournie and forget who the likes of Yoyo,Dantb10,Maxally, Scotty77, Jakally to name but a few are, as I seemed to get tabled with them throughout. Knowing they are top players in one respect helped raise my game, but I am sure they picked up on my apprehension/inexperience (which I don't think was given away in my bet sizes which I varied from min raises to 5xBB), but if I got in a hand with them, in which they called my pre flop raise, if I hit the board or had a pocket pair, I would either check raise or bet about 2/3rds of the pot if the board was straightening.. sometimes no probs and I got the fold and took the pot. My problem was when they re-raised back at me, which would have either put me close to all in, i.e holding a decent pockets A/Q off suit and hitting the flop K,10,Q... C/bet the flop around 2/3rd pot size and then raised..so I fold.. I know that some of the 'Big Gun' will shove with air using the flop to play an advantage in position, and use their reputation to 'bully' players off by represesenting premium hands... Anyone got any tips to get over this 'stigma of respect' for our top players and bite the bullet and shove back or call them...
Posted by larry1959

if ur min raising certain hands then 5 x raising other hands then the players mentioned will find it so easy to play you, why dont you just keep all your raise sizes the same preferabley not 5x aswell cos its to big.

i dont think you should fear anyone at the poker table, there all very good players but they only get dealt 2 cards just like you.

unknown_username

Hi Larry

Yes, i understand how you feel. One thing you've hit on is that these are good thinking players who will be noting how aggro you are, when you fold etc and how brave you've been. They don't want to play a poor player who will call there three bet all-in with Q8o(and we've all seen that) so it will lift your game to a level where you are considering the image that you are giving to the table. Yes a K,Q T flop can be horrible but they know that you know that too. Consequently, they make a play but is it a bluff? Who knows but your opponent.
You need to watch them and keep an eye on their stack sizes as certain plays require particular stack sizes. Personally, i love having the good players at the table as i know i'll learn something and it makes me more focussed. One thing i did read was to have a plan for your hand pre flop and reassess throughout.  Yes, its difficult but it improves your play and allows you to consider the other players in the pot.

percival09

completely over thinking the whole situation imo

altering your raise size from minimum to 5x is both horrendous and not needed. would be interesting to listen to your reasoning for this.

the overall standard in ukops was pretty poor, and the good players were at a v.minimum, and so you shouldnt have had to worry about getting into pots with those good players mentioned, because for every 1 of them, there was probably at least 3 fish per table. 

the advice I would give, genuinely, would be to try and improve your game, and then that'll give you the opportunity to actually play against these players and youll come to terms with different view points.

bearlyther

In Response to Playing the 'Big Guns':

F ( bet sizes which I varied from min raises to 5xBB), 
Posted by larry1959

Do not 5x raise!  First 2 levels in a tournament you can 3x after that should be minimum raising or slightly over it.  Never 3x it as the blinds go up you should be minimum raising or a few chips over it.  Your changing your bet sizing based on the strength of your hand this is highly exploitable.

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

completely over thinking the whole situation imo altering your raise size from minimum to 5x is both horrendous and not needed. would be interesting to listen to your reasoning for this. the overall standard in ukops was pretty poor, and the good players were at a v.minimum, and so you shouldnt have had to worry about getting into pots with those good players mentioned, because for every 1 of them, there was probably at least 3 fish per table.  the advice I would give, genuinely, would be to try and improve your game, and then that'll give you the opportunity to actually play against these players and youll come to terms with different view points.
Posted by percival09

+1 to this.

The standard was truly terrible imo. Most players seemed to be either very good or horrendous and there were very few players in between. 

IDONKCALLU

if u playing the so called big guns +1 to the rock

keep ya raise sizing the same ya bet sizes the same if ya bluufing or have the goods this way u wnt have any tells

larry1959

MMmmmmm...took some of the above advice on board and so far have had 80% my premium starting hands AA, KK, QQ, busted by preflop limps deciding to call my 3xBB from UTG or Min raise or min re-raise on the Button as suggested..they've hit the flops and can't let go managing to hit 2 pair either on the turn or river.. so i do think there is an arguement for betting 5x to try and protect your preflop premium hands....and get these limpers off their hands..better taking the blinds and limp calls than loosing have your have your stack to the likes of Q9 o/s on boards that hit 249..7...Q...on this particular hand I had pocket K's on the button and the blinds were 75/150...everyone limped round to me..I raised 3BB (normally I would raise 5x at this point)..SB and BB folded UTG called...flop came down 2,4,9.. he checked, I bet round 30% of the pot (to try and buiild the pot)..he raised so I flat called called (maybe here I should have shoved and gone all in, but this type of player doesn't let go anyway)... I put him on A/9...turn came down..7... I bet the pot on the turn and he shoved at me  which naturally I called, I knew I was ahead with my KK..he had Q9 o/s and hit his Q on the river...hands like this, using the suggested 3xbb or min raise is allowing these limpers and calling stations into pots they should not be involved in..yes there is the variance factor..but each hand that beat me either on the river or turn were hands that would have been folded with a 5x BB raise 99% of the time, thus reducing the 'variance' factor.

Advice much appreciated tho guys, and I agree it does make other players wonder what you have and on a positive note have pulled of more bluffs than I would normally..but when it's come to the big hands???..I need to secure it or show strength (or try to) preflop...

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

MMmmmmm...took some of the above advice on board and so far have had 80% my premium starting hands AA, KK, QQ, busted by preflop limps deciding to call my 3xBB from UTG or Min raise or min re-raise on the Button as suggested..they've hit the flops and can't let go managing to hit 2 pair either on the turn or river.. so i do think there is an arguement for betting 5x to try and protect your preflop premium hands....and get these limpers off their hands..better taking the blinds and limp calls than loosing have your have your stack to the likes of Q9 o/s on boards that hit 249..7...Q...on this particular hand I had pocket K's on the button and the blinds were 75/150...everyone limped round to me..I raised 3BB (normally I would raise 5x at this point)..SB and BB folded UTG called...flop came down 2,4,9.. he checked, I bet round 30% of the pot (to try and buiild the pot)..he raised so I flat called called (maybe here I should have shoved and gone all in, but this type of player doesn't let go anyway)... I put him on A/9...turn came down..7... I bet the pot on the turn and he shoved at me  which naturally I called, I knew I was ahead with my KK..he had Q9 o/s and hit his Q on the river...hands like this, using the suggested 3xbb or min raise is allowing these limpers and calling stations into pots they should not be involved in..yes there is the variance factor..but each hand that beat me either on the river or turn were hands that would have been folded with a 5x BB raise 99% of the time, thus reducing the 'variance' factor. Advice much appreciated tho guys, and I agree it does make other players wonder what you have and on a positive note have pulled of more bluffs than I would normally..but when it's come to the big hands???..I need to secure it or show strength (or try to) preflop...
Posted by larry1959

No. This is exactly what you want!!!! Most of the time there hand is not going to improve to beat yours and therefore the vast majority of the time you will be taking them to value town.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Playing the 'Big Guns':

First off, I would just like to say that the UKOPS series was excellent as was the TV coverage, well done Sky Poker. Although I really enjoyed playing in the UKOPS, I found myself being rather intimidated by playing up against the ' Big Guns' of the Sky Poker site. I tried to think of each tournie as just another tournie and forget who the likes of Yoyo,Dantb10,Maxally, Scotty77, Jakally to name but a few are, as I seemed to get tabled with them throughout. Knowing they are top players in one respect helped raise my game, but I am sure they picked up on my apprehension/inexperience (which I don't think was given away in my bet sizes which I varied from min raises to 5xBB), but if I got in a hand with them, in which they called my pre flop raise, if I hit the board or had a pocket pair, I would either check raise or bet about 2/3rds of the pot if the board was straightening.. sometimes no probs and I got the fold and took the pot. My problem was when they re-raised back at me, which would have either put me close to all in, i.e holding a decent pockets A/Q off suit and hitting the flop K,10,Q... C/bet the flop around 2/3rd pot size and then raised..so I fold.. I know that some of the 'Big Gun' will shove with air using the flop to play an advantage in position, and use their reputation to 'bully' players off by represesenting premium hands... Anyone got any tips to get over this 'stigma of respect' for our top players and bite the bullet and shove back or call them...
Posted by larry1959

Huh?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

In Response to Playing the 'Big Guns' : Huh?
Posted by GREGHOGG

Lol Alan must have paid him off

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

MMmmmmm...took some of the above advice on board and so far have had 80% my premium starting hands AA, KK, QQ, busted by preflop limps deciding to call my 3xBB from UTG or Min raise or min re-raise on the Button as suggested..they've hit the flops and can't let go managing to hit 2 pair either on the turn or river.. so i do think there is an arguement for betting 5x to try and protect your preflop premium hands....and get these limpers off their hands..better taking the blinds and limp calls than loosing have your have your stack to the likes of Q9 o/s on boards that hit 249..7...Q...on this particular hand I had pocket K's on the button and the blinds were 75/150...everyone limped round to me..I raised 3BB (normally I would raise 5x at this point)..SB and BB folded UTG called...flop came down 2,4,9.. he checked, I bet round 30% of the pot (to try and buiild the pot)..he raised so I flat called called (maybe here I should have shoved and gone all in, but this type of player doesn't let go anyway)... I put him on A/9...turn came down..7... I bet the pot on the turn and he shoved at me  which naturally I called, I knew I was ahead with my KK..he had Q9 o/s and hit his Q on the river...hands like this, using the suggested 3xbb or min raise is allowing these limpers and calling stations into pots they should not be involved in..yes there is the variance factor..but each hand that beat me either on the river or turn were hands that would have been folded with a 5x BB raise 99% of the time, thus reducing the 'variance' factor. Advice much appreciated tho guys, and I agree it does make other players wonder what you have and on a positive note have pulled of more bluffs than I would normally..but when it's come to the big hands???..I need to secure it or show strength (or try to) preflop...
Posted by larry1959

Sorry but this thinking is completely backwards.

Think abuot it, AA is a big favourite against J8o right? So when you're the big favourite, do you want them to put money in the pot preflop or just fold? Sure you get outdrawn sometimes, but if you scare everyone of from calling everytime, the only time you're gonna get action is in coolers.

In that example given, you allowed him to stay in and let him get ALL his money in when you were 85% favourite. What's better, getting ALL his money 85% of the time? or getting 1xBB all the time?? crazy

EDIT: By the way, I dunno what others have said but it's generally 3x + 1x per limper, so if you have 2 limpers, then you're fine to go 5x but as opening raise if you're first in the pot, 3x is better.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns' : Sorry but this thinking is completely backwards. Think abuot it, AA is a big favourite against J8o right? So when you're the big favourite, do you want them to put money in the pot preflop or just fold? Sure you get outdrawn sometimes, but if you scare everyone of from calling everytime, the only time you're gonna get action is in coolers. In that example given, you allowed him to stay in and let him get ALL his money in when you were 85% favourite. What's better, getting ALL his money 85% of the time? or getting 1xBB all the time?? crazy EDIT: By the way, I dunno what others have said but it's generally 3x + 1x per limper, so if you have 2 limpers, then you're fine to go 5x but as opening raise if you're first in the pot, 3x is better.
Posted by Lambert180

I understand the the thinking, and what I should have done here is raised 5xBB min with 4 other limpers in the pot. And yes the thought process was there, I wanted all his chips and got rivered (ce la vie).. and the Edit you put in makes the most sense.. so with 4 limpers, in theory. I should be raising a min of 7x BB.. I'll take that to the tables..thanks Lambert..best post to date.. 

jonjo75

I think you have missunderstood most of the advice given here. No one has said you should min raise or even 3x bb with 3 or 4 limpers already in the pot.
They are talking about when you open raise a pot with no action before. Of course if you already have 4 limpers in you pump it up more.
If you are talking about MTTs then I personally bet 3 and sometimes even 4 x bb in the first level and after a few levels go down to 2 to 2.5 xbb but that doesnt mean its right or wrong its just what I do.

Mr_Steak

These threads are hilarious, why does anyone offer advice here? Stop tapping the glass,

Lambert180

Cos discussing poker can make you think about things and improve your own game? That's why a lot of good players discuss poker with other players.

bolly580

vast majority of "big guns" will see you/anyone else as an unkown nobody.

More often than not theyl play ABC against ya and wait for ya to stack off with 1 pair when they're massive.

If you had history v any of these players then maybe that could count but i dont think theyl be doing too many wierd bluffy lines v you

beaneh

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

These threads are hilarious, why does anyone offer advice here? Stop tapping the glass,
Posted by Mr_Steak

sit and wait more hu instead of posting here you pleb?

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

These threads are hilarious, why does anyone offer advice here? Stop tapping the glass,
Posted by Mr_Steak

 Dear dear Mr S

People post so they can show interest and help. i suggest that if you've nothing to contribute that's useful then a poker clinic is not the place for you.
PS We,ve all heard the sayng "tapping the glass" but we all started somewhere. There's no magic secrets to poker that hard work, some enlightenment and experience won't bring forth. A few helpful tips are not the Holy Grail sir!!!!

AcidMan27

Also if a player is already looking around on here then they're obviously wanting to work on their game.

The players who like to splash around for a few hours each night are probably never going to think about reading a poker forum.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

completely over thinking the whole situation imo altering your raise size from minimum to 5x is both horrendous and not needed. would be interesting to listen to your reasoning for this. the overall standard in ukops was pretty poor, and the good players were at a v.minimum, and so you shouldnt have had to worry about getting into pots with those good players mentioned, because for every 1 of them, there was probably at least 3 fish per table.  the advice I would give, genuinely, would be to try and improve your game, and then that'll give you the opportunity to actually play against these players and youll come to terms with different view points.
Posted by percival09

The reasons for the variation in P/F raises are dependant on my pocket hand strength, and the players at the table..( table with my listed calling stations on, who will pay any price to see a flop, I will raise 5x everytime with premium hands, regardless of position).
 I may show emmense strength by raising 5x with pocket 3's or try and show a weaker hand & min raise with AA..or vice versa. I try and ''mix it up'' preflop as well as on the flop,( bet out, check raise or try and check it down if I think I'm behind) turn and river. The idea behind it is to get players on the table unsure of what I'm raising with, and after being called and taking down a few successive pots, it gives the impression that I only raise when i have something. This in turn gives me a little respect around the table and can then afford a few bluffs along the way.
Whether or not the 'Big Guns' read into this I don't know, but I am hardly predictable.

waller02

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns':

In Response to Re: Playing the 'Big Guns' : The reasons for the variation in P/F raises are dependant on my pocket hand strength, and the players at the table..( table with my listed calling stations on, who will pay any price to see a flop,I will raise 5x everytime with premium hands, regardless of position).  I may show emmense strength by raising 5x with pocket 3's or try and show a weaker hand & min raise with AA..or vice versa. I try and ''mix it up'' preflop as well as on the flop,( bet out, check raise or try and check it down if I think I'm behind) turn and river. The idea behind it is to get players on the table unsure of what I'm raising with, and after being called and taking down a few successive pots, it gives the impression that I only raise when i have something. This in turn gives me a little respect around the table and can then afford a few bluffs along the way. Whether or not the 'Big Guns' read into this I don't know, but I am hardly predictable.
Posted by larry1959

I don't really understand your thinking here tbh. 5xing unopened is too much regardless of your hand (unless there are limpers), you want to be conserving chips at all times and by raising less you can then c-bet less and also get away from the hand for less if the oppo shows strength.

You say the idea of mixing up your raise sizes is to keep the oppo unsure of what you are raising with........but  sticking to one raise size (2-3x) does exactly the same job.

IDONKCALLU

ive never 5 x in any game preflop lol its kinda madness tbh maybe in the 4nl days when i had aa or kk coz people on that level call on anything

larry1959

Having taken onboard lots of the tips on this thread and the rest of the clinic, I manage to finish in my highest spot yet in a major Sky tournie. Although I bombed in the main 15k B/H, I finished in 8th place in the mini beating over 400 runners...just need to tranfer that attitude to one of the big tournies...many thnax to all those who contribute to the clinic, my game has  improved no end