small pocket pairs

craigcu12

when i hold a pocket pair >66 because i am only really aiming for a set should i limp in from any position or should i have still made a bet preflop as i was on the button

p1	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.01
p2	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£6.00
	Your hole cards	4 4
p3	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.89
p4	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£3.80
p5	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£4.74
p1	Fold
p2	Check
Flop
		7 3 4
p2	Check
p3	Bet		£0.12	£0.30	£2.77
p4	Call		£0.12	£0.42	£3.68
craigcu12	Raise		£0.39

the reason i ask is with these it will be hard to represent an over pair on the flop so basically all i want is the card that will make a set othwise i will be probably folding.
but the otherside to it is how much i could gain so most of the time i will raise post flop to get a bigger pot which generally would mean calls only from big hands and flush draws.
what would be best in the long run always limping preflop with these always betting preflop or should i bet if on cut off and button but limp from blinds UTG and early position

Lambert180

You are set-mining cheaply with these hands.

Forget about representing stuff at 4NL, call cheaply pre, if you hit the flop continue, if you don't fold.

EDIT: If they limp, I'd limp along with 22 - 88. If no1 is in the pot before yuo, imo never limp, just raise it up like you would any other hand.

percival09

In Response to Re: small pocket pairs:

You are set-mining cheaply with these hands. Forget about representing stuff at 4NL, call cheaply pre, if you hit the flop continue, if you don't fold. EDIT: If they limp, I'd limp along with 22 - 88. If no1 is in the pot before yuo, imo never limp, just raise it up like you would any other hand.
Posted by Lambert180

pretty much dis

jugglegeek

This hand is played fine. It is okay to limp behind with small pps. We want to see a flop cheep. Even if the blinds raise you probably still have the implied odds to call and set mine. Don't open limp though. Make it 12p with these hands pre-flop and you will pick up the blinds often enough. If you open limp you let the BB in for free and you will see lots of overcards. You will probably end up check-folding hands where the blind would never have called even a 12p raise.

Obv. this is exploitable if you raise to 20p with all hands but 12p with small pps. The regs may notice and start floating pre-flop and stealing the pot when you miss the flop. To counter this start raising hands like K9,QT and the like to 12p from the button if you have a reg in the blinds. But this is only necessary if you notice the regs adjusting (unlikely at NL4)

Spikelad

Craig Lambert and jugglegeek have summed this up perfectly,what juggle says about it being exploitable is the key here i think.At Nl4 most of the players dont notice what you are doing regarding different bet sizes,.

There are a few regs who would spot this very quickly and would then make things difficult for you but i am sure you will soon know who they are.

Damo1991

I know you have some imput already - but heres my logic.

Pocket Pairs in general are always going to be slightly harder to play, generally getting harder as you reach QQ/KK/AA.
The problem with people limping pre-flop with pocket pairs, (in particular low pocket pairs), is that when you do hit the set, and it looks like such a drawing board, alot of the time you will end up getting called raising by someone with a flush draw/gut shot/open ended straight draw which can lose you plenty of money in the long run.  Whereas if you was to RAISE pre-flop with the low pocket pair, you would get rid of alot of the low suited connectors and wide range straight draws.  (Problem with this is that when it comes down to the crunch, if you raise pre-flop and you dont hit the set on the flop, it could get nasty for you or you lose the raise pre-flop you have commited)
Explanation - If you have a pocket pair say 22, and the flop comes A 2 7, you have got the chance to get paid alot of the time as if someone is calling your raise pre-flop they are more then likely to have a premium hand (AK/AQ/KQ etc..) and would think they are infront with the top pair.
However, when it comes to Pocket pairs like AA/KK/QQ and you hit the set on the flop, it will be alot harder for you to gain any money, as if the Board does come A 2 7 and you have AA, the only way they will call any raise is with the last remaining A or another set or maybe even two pair..

Heres my imput (sorry for the essay lol)

Lambert180

In Response to Re: small pocket pairs:

I know you have some imput already - but heres my logic. Pocket Pairs in general are always going to be slightly harder to play, generally getting harder as you reach QQ/KK/AA. The problem with people limping pre-flop with pocket pairs, (in particular low pocket pairs), is that when you do hit the set, and it looks like such a drawing board, alot of the time you will end up getting called raising by someone with a flush draw/gut shot/open ended straight draw which can lose you plenty of money in the long run.  Whereas if you was to RAISE pre-flop with the low pocket pair, you would get rid of alot of the low suited connectors and wide range straight draws.  (Problem with this is that when it comes down to the crunch, if you raise pre-flop and you dont hit the set on the flop, it could get nasty for you or you lose the raise pre-flop you have commited) Explanation - If you have a pocket pair say 22, and the flop comes A 2 7, you have got the chance to get paid alot of the time as if someone is calling your raise pre-flop they are more then likely to have a premium hand (AK/AQ/KQ etc..) and would think they are infront with the top pair. However, when it comes to Pocket pairs like AA/KK/QQ and you hit the set on the flop, it will be alot harder for you to gain any money, as if the Board does come A 2 7 and you have AA, the only way they will call any raise is with the last remaining A or another set or maybe even two pair.. Heres my imput (sorry for the essay lol)
Posted by Damo1991

This wins you money in the long term, not loses. Flopped flush draws only have abuot 1in3 chance of getting there, flopped open end straight draws have slightly less chance, and gutshot draws have a lot less chance, and even with this 1in3 chance of them making their hand, when we flop a set, we always have decent odds to make a FH and crush their straight/flush anyway.

If all I saw in poker from now til the end of time was flopped sets v flopped draws I would be a very happy man!

We want people drawing when we flop sets, we want to flop a whoppa and have them call raises when they do not have the correct odds to do so (that's why bet sizing is important)

Damo1991

Lambert, you are very right - I re-read the statement and your correction makes it what I WANTED to make it,
Apologies for the confusion.

rancid

hate the limp pre on the button, very bad habit forming to limp button with prs imo
Yes you are set mining but versus what, limped hands
If you want to play one way to win poker then limp
If you want to give yourself two ways to win then raise

just raise pre, start to build pot pre - make it easy to get stacks in - plus you don't wanna go multi way with 4's
& yes you can rep with c bets on flop when you raise, plus how easy is it to assign range to the two limpers -
plsu you kinda want this heads up


btw when you limp 4's like this you may aswell just give the bb away and limp a very wide range tbfh because you may flop better then oppo's !!
mmm verus 4 overcards - good luck )

hit set go bananas )