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Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?

bearlytherbearlyther
edited January 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Whats your thoughts on folding ak pre here against a reg 50 nl nit.  Also his 4 bet sizing is so big it should tell me he is never folding.  On other sites im happy to get ak in pre all day long against regs as they know im capable of 3 bet bluffing and i can expect them to 4 bet with worse.  However if i get 4 bet here against certain players they will never be bluffing.  

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceFORDYCESmall blind £0.25£0.25£106.30jacklBig blind £0.50£0.75£48.00faraSit out     Your hole cardsKA   ...........Raise £1.50£2.25£59.08bearlytherRaise £5.00£7.25£47.25thebil123Fold    FORDYCEFold    jacklFold    ..........Raise £17.50£24.75£41.58
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Comments

  • jugglegeekjugglegeek
    edited January 2013
    Does this reg call 3-bets out of possition with dominated hands or do they only fold or 4-bet with QQ+. If it's the latter then I wouldn't bother 3betting since you are essentially turning your hand into a bluff.

    It's been discussed pretty extensivly and vs a range that only includes big pairs then getting it in pre with AK is -ev.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2013
    Does your own image not come into it.

    If your certain that oppo only 4 bets QQ+ then I guess just fold
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    Does your own image not come into it.

    Thats the problem lol!  Il end up jamming with worse a lot of the time if i have been 3 betting light as il out level myself thinking he knows that im 3 betting light and therefore he has to come over the top and light 4 bet me at some point otherwise hes just going to let me exploit him. But then again maybe im over complicating things against a reg abc nit.

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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit? :
    Does your own image not come into it. Thats the problem lol!  Il end up jamming with worse a lot of the time if i have been 3 betting light as il out level myself thinking he knows that im 3 betting light and therefore he has to come over the top and light 4 bet me at some point otherwise hes just going to let me exploit him. But then again maybe im over complicating things against a reg abc nit.
    Posted by bearlyther
    Think your thinking is fine but just against the wrong oppo, maybe ?

    Depends where you are on the levels, but if oppo is 4 betting 10/J's/AQ then quite obiovusly you have to get it in with AK for levels to work our for you when you have QQ+

    If oppo is not 4 betting 10's/J's/AQ or worse verus you then it becomes easier for you to fold to oppo 4 bet init

    If you fold or not is only relevant to the history you have with oppo and not oppo overall perceived image

    Yeah but no but, if you have been 3 betting light and probbaly have that image then I can see why you would want to get it in with AK here. But if oppo really doesn't care that you could 3 bet 10's/89s/35o and will not 4 bet light then AK becomes an easy fold. The fact that you call oppo a nit would suggest it's a fold because oppo 4 bet raange is so weighted.






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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited January 2013
    Hi B

    i don't play cash but sounds like your out-levelling yourself because you understand your opponents but know you could be pushing yourself into a trap of your own making. Yes normally fold but i understand your conundrum. Sorry i'm not experienced enough to give an answer.
    Just a q? Would the size of the pot odds affect whether you call or not here? 3 1/2 times your raise seems substantial to fish for A or K but then maybe what you have behind could be considered. When i see some stuff that Launder gets involved in on Top of the Pots, its easy to see that the image you have to others may affect what they are doing and how they are betting.
    Ty for showing me stuff that's stops me playing cash though B. I appreciate it ha. All the best in 2013 and i hope your foray into the pro poker world works out well for you.
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited January 2013
    In my experience there are some regs at this level who will literally only 4bet that size with AA/KK. So therefore AKh clearly becomes a fold. If you've seen a hand that's gone to showdown with this 4b sizing and it wasn't one of those two hands I'd be more comfortable about getting it in - especially with 'your image'. If you are behind I guess you could always try and get there and then rofl at them for being so bad.
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In my experience there are some regs at this level who will literally only 4bet that size with AA/KK. So therefore AKh clearly becomes a fold. If you've seen a hand that's gone to showdown with this 4b sizing and it wasn't one of those two hands I'd be more comfortable about getting it in - especially with 'your image'. If you are behind I guess you could always try and get there and then rofl at them for being so bad.
    Posted by pryce6
    His sizing is massive
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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89
    edited January 2013
    I had the same spot as this other say at nl50 and knew it was a fold vs nit and just shoved because i leveled myself into thinking ive been 3 betting a few buttons hes probably picked up on this so i shoved and he had KK. Its just opponent based in spots like this. The huge raise is more or less telling you he aint folding imo.
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    Hi B i don't play cash but sounds like your out-levelling yourself because you understand your opponents but know you could be pushing yourself into a trap of your own making. Yes normally fold but i understand your conundrum. Sorry i'm not experienced enough to give an answer. Just a q? Would the size of the pot odds affect whether you call or not here? 3 1/2 times your raise seems substantial to fish for A or K but then maybe what you have behind could be considered. When i see some stuff that Launder gets involved in on Top of the Pots, its easy to see that the image you have to others may affect what they are doing and how they are betting. Ty for showing me stuff that's stops me playing cash though B. I appreciate it ha. All the best in 2013 and i hope your foray into the pro poker world works out well for you.
    Posted by profman15
    Thanks prof

    I cant call his 4 bet as his 4 bet sizing is so huge and he will have to barrell the flop anyway and most of the time im going to miss so it either has to be an allin or fold.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit? : Thanks prof I cant call his 4 bet as his 4 bet sizing is so huge and he will have to barrell the flop anyway and most of the time im going to miss so it either has to be an allin or fold.
    Posted by bearlyther

    should of shoved it
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit? : His sizing is massive
    Posted by bearlyther
    Hence why I said, "some regs will only 4bet that size with AA/KK"...

    It would be completely dependant upon history for me - if you've not played out a hand like this previously, best to fold imo. Or you can just donate the 50 (possibly get there) and chalk it up as info for future. If you play well you should make it back + a chunk more over time against players like this.
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited January 2013
    b*******? i jam, i seem to win pf all-ins vs him :), folding is prob best but shoving is not the worst play if your image is a bit loose, there is only 2 players this could be other ends with a 9?... if i am wrong than il be darned

    fwiw i would make it 4.50 ip, 

    as others have said its villain dependant
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    britrock? i jam, i seem to win pf all-ins vs him :), folding is prob best but shoving is not the worst play if your image is a bit loose, there is only 2 players this could be other ends with a 9?... if i am wrong than il be darned fwiw i would make it 4.50 ip,  as others have said its villain dependant
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    sent you pm mate
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit? : sent you pm mate
    Posted by bearlyther
    im prob jamming..., well sometimes :S hehe depends on game flow, recent hitory, feel etc, although if it is ever a fold its prob in that spot tbh, blind v blind never a fold too much history there... 

    pff my comment doesnt help at all XD, 


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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit?:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding ak pre when 4 bet against a nit? : im prob jamming..., well sometimes :S hehe depends on game flow, recent hitory, feel etc, although if it is ever a fold its prob in that spot tbh, blind v blind never a fold too much history there...  pff my comment doesnt help at all XD, 
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    Im really hating this spot so much
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited January 2013
    think ya overthinking this he prob knows u have  notes or think hes tight so when he raises here he could have anything now u have shown this hand on here if i was the player looking at this id be happily play u all the time now as your posting it up saying shall i fold to a 4 bet vs a nit

    so now hes thinking i might aswell 4 bet everytime now if hes asking this with a k :p
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013

    I almost folded but i did end up jaming and he had aces.  I definately believe i made a bad jam here with the dynamic against this player and im not being results orientated here because i lost.  AK just plays so bad against his range and is -ev to jam here imo.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited January 2013
    i think folding is good
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited January 2013
    Just happened again to me lol bvb this time when i was bb against the other 50 nl nitty reg why cant i fold ak pre lol
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