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What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?

bearlytherbearlyther
edited January 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Playing against a random and utg raises and a flat call i reraise with ak and now the guy that has flat called the 1st raise shoves.  What type of range can we put the villan on when this happens?  Result is irrelavant would just like peoples thoughts on what there range could be when this happens.

Geek57Small blind £0.25£0.25£36.71ChallakBig blind £0.50£0.75£60.87...........Big blind £0.50£1.25£39.50 Your hole cardsKA   stanley08Raise £2.00£3.25£30.13............Call £1.50£4.75£38.00WHOAMI196Fold    bearlytherRaise £8.00£12.75£54.76Geek57Fold    ChallakFold    stanley08Fold    .................All-in £38.00£50.75£0.00          
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Comments

  • PuppetJackPuppetJack
    edited January 2013
    Hmm,... I'm guessing only a premium pair which they were previously trying to trap with?
    unless they were hyper aggro & trying to semi-bluff you off with AJ, AQ or AK. -that i feel is less likely though.

    I suppose it also depends on how active you'd been of late, and if they felt you could be 3 betting light.
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  • shakinacesshakinaces
    edited January 2013

    I was in this position a couple of times at far lower stakes (NL10) over the weekend with hands like AK/AQ/JJ/TT

    Always bottled the call as I figured that the initial limp was AA or possibly KK which had initially thought to trap, then seen the 3-bet and figured I had a hand to call with and was happy to jam it all in there and then.

    Maybe I'm being too dismissive of most other NL10 players, but not sure they are likely to play much else in that manner?

    At the levels you are playing, I suppose there could be a case that your 3-bet is read as a squeeze play and, having called the original raiser with a small pair/suited connectors, thinks your squeezing light and takes the nuclear option with the expectation that you are a good enough player to fold anything except a small number of premium hands...

    Will be interested to see the opinions on this though, as it does seem to be a move that a few players are trying at the moment.

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited January 2013
    do the maths
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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2013
    Surely he needs a range to do the math
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited January 2013
    overcall then a shove to a 3b... jeez just call it

    range includes alot of medium pairs and maybe even AQ

    Fark doing the maths... i wouldnt know where to begin...
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  • mj8bsmj8bs
    edited January 2013

    Whats your image at the table? If youve been raising/re-raising a fair bit and generally being hyper aggressive, then I might make a similar ish play with AA, KK, QQ. I'd say a lot of the time, you're gonna see QQ - 88, AQ, AJs. Based on similar hands in live cash games I play, I've seen similar plays made with 9Ts, JTs, JQs, KQs, KJs. Readless, I prob call, throw the laptop out of the window when he shows me AA, buy a new laptop and make notes on the player.

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    Surely he needs a range to do the math
    Posted by rancid

    no he can do the math. 


    then work out ranges to fit and see the inflection point.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : no he can do the math.  then work out ranges to fit and see the inflection point.
    Posted by beaneh
    thanks you lost me again )

    Work out price, note range, mmmmm inflection point.... I feel a google moment coming on
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : no he can do the math.  then work out ranges to fit and see the inflection point.
    Posted by beaneh
    I think you should do summit about your inflection point, maybe see a doctor.. :)

    Anyway hes got AK, the villain has played the hand in a really strange way, just call innit... 
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited January 2013
    math prob suggest slow playing a big PP or he might have cards that he would like to take to the races PP 88-JJ
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : thanks you lost me again ) Work out price, note range, mmmmm inflection point.... I feel a google moment coming on
    Posted by rancid

    work out the price you are getting.


    look at the equity you need to breakeven.


    assign a tight range. assess the equity.

    assign a very loose range. assess the equity.

    see the difference between the two assigned ranges and the required BE point value.


    the inflection point is the point at which if you add or remove hands you move away from the BE value.


    so adding more hands that are weak makes it a better than breakeven play.

    having to add hands in to make it reach the breakeven point means it's worse than breakeven.

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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : work out the price you are getting. look at the equity you need to breakeven. assign a tight range. assess the equity. assign a very loose range. assess the equity. see the difference between the two assigned ranges and the required BE point value. the inflection point is the point at which if you add or remove hands you move away from the BE value. so adding more hands that are weak makes it a better than breakeven play. having to add hands in to make it reach the breakeven point means it's worse than breakeven.
    Posted by beaneh

    Thanks, always a help )
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  • SpikeladSpikelad
    edited January 2013
    Hi bearly this is an interesting hand pre,i agree with PuppetJack have you been 3 betting light and getting away with it.How has the villian been playing,without a read on this guy i would say a really strong hand QQ, KK, AA.


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  • waller02waller02
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    Hi bearly this is an interesting hand pre,i agree with PuppetJack have you been 3 betting light and getting away with it.How has the villian been playing,without a read on this guy i would say a really strong hand QQ, KK, AA.
    Posted by Spikelad
    But wouldn't he have 3 bet himself with these hands. Are you not losing value just flatting AA/KK hoping bearly 3 bets? But then yeah I guess it does depend on how often he has been doing this. I'm with greg though, medium pairs and maybe AQ.

    Surely everyone is overthinking this hand?? The villains line is weird and at the end of the day there are only 2 hands we don't wanna see....is this not a pretty standard call? If he has AA/KK make a note and reload
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  • step7step7
    edited January 2013
    Villain showing massive strength, so against unknown assume your AK is toast.
    This guy needs watching from now on, if a fish this could well be any ace, any two broadways..
    If this guy turns out to be a good lag you've just been squeezed with ATC :)

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  • simonnatursimonnatur
    edited January 2013
    In a vacuum I'ld say his range is likely to be medium pairs and big Aces.

    Agree with others that so much depends on your image at the table and how much youve been using the btn to iso weaker players. If this is the case, is he sophisticated enough to flat with a big hand in a spot that looks tailor made for you to squeeze from the btn ?
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  • PuppetJackPuppetJack
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : work out the price you are getting. look at the equity you need to breakeven. assign a tight range. assess the equity. assign a very loose range. assess the equity. see the difference between the two assigned ranges and the required BE point value. the inflection point is the point at which if you add or remove hands you move away from the BE value. so adding more hands that are weak makes it a better than breakeven play. having to add hands in to make it reach the breakeven point means it's worse than breakeven.
    Posted by beaneh
    In fifteen seconds?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : In fifteen seconds?
    Posted by PuppetJack

    yes the first 5 seconds goes into the equity analysis, the last 10 seconds is just me in front of the mirror doing my hair like the fonz.


    no obviously not do it away from the tables and learn from it so that next time you are in a similar spot you have a more intuitive understanding of the maths of the situation.
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  • MAXALLYMAXALLY
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : In fifteen seconds?
    Posted by PuppetJack

    LOLZ!....Brilliant! This is why I love reading the clinic!

    Timebank FTW Beany? :)
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  • Die_hardDie_hard
    edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot?:
    In Response to Re: What range of hands can we give the villan in this spot? : yes the first 5 seconds goes into the equity analysis, the last 10 seconds is just me in front of the mirror doing my hair like the fonz.Posted by beaneh
    Love the reply though pmsl :)
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