did my turn cost me a larger pot

craigcu12

if a player is showing aggression is that the time that a shove should be done when holding the nuts
with the flop i was thinking it might be a cbet with a weak hand so i went with the call but with him then making another bet on the turn is that when shoves are better that slow play with the absolute nuts

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jebbo	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.60
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.72
	Your hole cards	J J
vil	Raise		£0.12	£0.18	£3.04
1stackshot	Fold
thesnakebg	Fold
TINTIN	Fold
jebbo	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£0.08	£0.26	£3.64
Flop
		9 9 J
craigcu12	Check
vil	Bet		£0.20	£0.46	£2.84
craigcu12	Call		£0.20	£0.66	£3.44
Turn
		5
craigcu12	Check
vil	Bet		£0.50	£1.16	£2.34
craigcu12	Call		£0.50	£1.66	£2.94
River
		7
craigcu12	Check
vil	Check
craigcu12	Show	J J
vil	Muck
craigcu12	Win	Full House, Jacks and 9s	£1.53		£4.47

Lambert180

I'd probably raise the turn, but don't shove, and I'd never check the river, too often he'll check behind with loads of weak hands that he would have called a bet with.

BorinLoner

I'd rather check-raise the flop than check-raise the turn.

If you check-raise the flop you can be doing so with a flush-draw, straight-draw or just a Jack. If you had any of those draws you wouldn't wait until the turn to semi-bluff (probably) and you probably wouldn't check-call the flop, then check-raise the turn with just a Jack. Most people would check-call again.

I'd check-raise the flop and then I'd have the betting lead for future streets. If you never make any moves then you can only be raising with a real hand though, so this is only going to be a good play if you also make these raises with semi-bluffs with draws. If you always play draws passively, then you should check-call both flop and turn, then lead the river for an amount that you would also make as a bluff if you'd missed your draw.

Essentially you should ask yourself what you would do if you had a draw on this board and do that.

As it is, bet the river. Not full-pot as that only ever seems to mean the nuts at lower stakes. As Lambert says, when you check the river, your opponent is going to check back so, so often.

On another note; why no 3-bet pre-flop? What's your opponent's raising range and how does he respond to 3-bets? I'm just interested in your reasons for flatting, not that it's necessarily bad.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot:

I'd rather check-raise the flop than check-raise the turn. If you check-raise the flop you can be doing so with a flush-draw, straight-draw or just a Jack. If you had any of those draws you wouldn't wait until the turn to semi-bluff (probably) and you probably wouldn't check-call the flop, then check-raise the turn with just a Jack. Most people would check-call again. I'd check-raise the flop and then I'd have the betting lead for future streets. If you never make any moves then you can only be raising with a real hand though, so this is only going to be a good play if you also make these raises with semi-bluffs with draws. If you always play draws passively, then you should check-call both flop and turn, then lead the river for an amount that you would also make as a bluff if you'd missed your draw. Essentially you should ask yourself what you would do if you had a draw on this board and do that. As it is, bet the river. Not full-pot as that only ever seems to mean the nuts at lower stakes. As Lambert says, when you check the river, your opponent is going to check back so, so often. On another note; why no 3-bet pre-flop? What's your opponent's raising range and how does he respond to 3-bets? I'm just interested in your reasons for flatting, not that it's necessarily bad.
Posted by BorinLoner

Good point, completely missed this. I'm definitely 3betting JJ @ 4NL

GELDY

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot:

why no 3-bet pre-flop? What's your opponent's raising range and how does he respond to 3-bets? I'm just interested in your reasons for flatting, not that it's necessarily bad.
Posted by BorinLoner

without reads when would it be good to flat with JJ oop at low stakes?

craigcu12

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot:

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot : without reads when would it be good to flat with JJ oop at low stakes?
Posted by GELDY

i had a look through the history the sort of reading i see is middle betting with high connector cards and Axs and 4-5bb with any pocket pairs.
and frop the flop onwards he would go larger with good hands and flush draws and check or do a continue bet wit hands he missed
so this his hand here was most likely a flush draw since he did a 3xbb preflop

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot:

In Response to Re: did my turn cost me a larger pot : without reads when would it be good to flat with JJ oop at low stakes?
Posted by GELDY

Against someone who only raises premium hands we should flat pre with JJ. There are a few of them knocking around at NL10 so I assume the same is true at NL4. Obviously if someone's raising every hand and always folding to 3-bets without premium hands, then we can flat for value. Being out of position will make things trickier but never mind.