did i take a big risk calling with this many shoves

craigcu12

craigcu12	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.09
stevedore	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.59
	Your hole cards	K K
fffflipek	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£4.23
Wicklow	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£4.36
halliday12	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£4.21
Dormy4	Call		£0.04	£0.22	£1.88
craigcu12	Raise		£0.18	£0.40	£4.91
stevedore	Call		£0.16	£0.56	£2.43
fffflipek	Call		£0.16	£0.72	£4.07
Wicklow	Call		£0.16	£0.88	£4.20
halliday12	Fold
Dormy4	Call		£0.16	£1.04	£1.72
Flop
		8 7 5
craigcu12	Bet		£1.04	£2.08	£3.87
stevedore	Call		£1.04	£3.12	£1.39
fffflipek	All-in		£4.07	£7.19	£0.00
Wicklow	All-in		£4.20	£11.39	£0.00
Dormy4	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£3.16	£14.55	£0.71
stevedore	All-in		£1.39

Lambert180

Given that most people at 4NL are ridic passive, I'd be willing to bet alot on the fact you're drawing to 2 outs, if not drawing to runner runner cos 1 has a straight.

BigHawk89

You need to raise way more pre. Just bomb it up.

cenachav

You need to raise to at least 40p here pre.  I'm not folding but would be supprised if I am ahead.

IDONKCALLU

raise size difernet on 4 nl  on a standard 20 nl tabled or 50 nl table im 2 x but 4 nl as alot of people play any 2 cards   5 x raise it pre

step7

I gave u some of my thoughts on this hand in the related BBV post Craig, one thing I didn't mention was your raise size pre.

I agree with the concensus here that your preflop raise was on the small side and villains are getting too sexy a price to not call, especially once they start schooling. From the BB I tend to raise a little over pot and especially with this many limpers lurking around. (Would be interested in other views on raising limpers from the BB, baring in mind you're most likely OOP for the rest of the hand.)

I would have gone at least 30 here, nothing too crazy as you still want villains to feel like they have room to 3 bet/shove over you to steal.

I was never trying to suggest you made a big mistake here btw, just coaxing you to think what hand(s) you're up against

JackoG9

As others have stated, you need to bet much more pre. You can bet around 40p pre flop and safely assume you'll get at least one caller at NL4 - particularly as four have already limped. Post flop, you're almost certainly behind and possibly drawing to runner runner.

step7

That's twice 40p has been quoted, where's this number coming from? Any math behind that?

craigcu12

well this is the hands they had and it bring up another question relating to the sort of players am time

stevedore	Show	Q 9
fffflipek	Show	6 Q
Wicklow	Show	9 10
Turn
		J
River
		8
Wicklow	Win	Straight to the Jack	£14.74		£14.74

do the micro tables from around 9pm start getting lots of people who just treat poker like bingo?
during the afternoon most people seem to play like calling stations or just want to see what the flop brings but i rarely see many shoves

rancid

The basic thoughts are lets gambles it's only 20p to call, we are talking pennies.
So they don't care of think about anything else.

Hit flop & don't fold
Don't be afriad to raise more


edit: sorry didn't mention -
raise pre as much money as you want 35p
flop as played, bet 80p and fold looking at that action - 2 pr minimum
You just don't wanna go multi way like this unless you can fold your hand when facing spots like this

percival09

I'd prob b/f smaller otf

Lambert180

Well at 4NL I'd generally recommend 5x pre (20p) then + 1 for every limper so that takes us up to 36p here, and at this level I always add a bit more with monsters cos frankly at this level they just don't notice and if they'll call 36p, then probably call 45p too.

JackoG9

In Response to Re: did i take a big risk calling with this many shoves:

Well at 4NL I'd generally recommend 5x pre (20p) then + 1 for every limper so that takes us up to 36p here, and at this level I always add a bit more with monsters cos frankly at this level they just don't notice and if they'll call 36p, then probably call 45p too.
Posted by Lambert180

Spot on

step7

Some interesting comments about preflop bet sizing in a limp infested game, 5x+ raises brings up other questions in my mind which I might start another thread on rather than hijacking this one.

Back to Craig's question, the conscensus seems to be that yes you took a significant risk calling, I'd add be careful you don't fall into the trap of reviewing a hand and looking at villians specific hands rather than their most likely hand ranges and using that to direct your thinking in similar spots in the future. Laying down KK is painful here but bear in mind KK in a 5 way pot is a coin flip situation against the field from the outset and things have got even uglier with this much heat post flop.

rusty762

just need to bet it big enough p/f v callers to get it heads up- and this should ensure you are playing for villain's stack.  - 1.5 - 2 x pot should be good (40-45p).
ps if you look at the pot odds that were created by betting small after 4 callers you will see why most of them peeled, esp last 2 , 16/76,16/88