NL4: Bet 3flush turn with set vs two callers?

step7

Was I just burning money here or is bet/fold the play? I'm trying to bet thinner at the mo and extract but can't help thinking this was an error tho v 2.

Noted villain up as flush chaser, willing to call overpot to get there with 5 hi flush!! Needless to say this money soon came back with interest

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Macd781	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.90
Dormy4	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.96
DEBZ181	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£3.96
	Your hole cards	9 9
step7	Raise		£0.20	£0.30	£6.76
DEBZ181	Call		£0.16	£0.46	£3.80
garyamaru	Fold
danpar	Call		£0.20	£0.66	£3.95
Macd781	Fold
Dormy4	Fold
Flop
		10 9 4
step7	Bet		£0.80	£1.46	£5.96
DEBZ181	Call		£0.80	£2.26	£3.00
danpar	Call		£0.80	£3.06	£3.15
Turn
		8
step7	Bet		£1.12	£4.18	£4.84
DEBZ181	Raise		£2.24	£6.42	£0.76
danpar	All-in		£3.15	£9.57	£0.00
step7	Fold
DEBZ181	All-in		£0.74	£10.31	£0.02
danpar	Unmatched bet		£0.17	£10.14	£0.17
DEBZ181	Show	10 Q
danpar	Show	5 4
River
		5
danpar	Win	Flush to the 10	£9.39		£9.56

gazza127

Couple of things: 5x raise utg.  Don't like it, especially with 9s. Edit - (I don't play cash so if its slightly different tell me).  I hate 9s personally, never know what to do with them.  I've decided to start treating them as small pp like 2/3/4s to save myself some money.  I'd still play the 9s but raise 3x utg, and folding to a reraise pre (unless you are playing against an aggro player).  I wouldnt overbet the flop like you have either.  3/4 pot bet on flop.  Bottom line is you want worse hands to call and pay you off.  If you scare people off you don't get paid.  Of course its bad when they hit but you should be winning more often than not.  Bet/fold turn definitely.  Tough to lay down set but calling hands include JQ and diamonds and your saving yourself money (especially if you have notes on the player)

step7

Thanks for your thougts Gazza, just picking up on some of the points you made..

1. Preflop Raise. In micro cash games there a droves of fish who want to call and see a flop to hit their miracle hand. You have to gauge how cally the table is and set the price accordingly. 3x open at this table and it would have been 6-way for sure. As it was, 5x from an UTG raiser and still getting 2 callers! Look what called me, both speculative junk hands going fishing. QTo is a really bad call from mid position with 4 players still to act all of whom could reraise. Same sort of issue with 54s with the blinds still to act behind him.

2. 99 UTG. I personally love getting 9s in a cash game, even UTG they're money makers. The number of callers and board texture dictate my play post flop. Some ppl have similar issues with 88..JJ. There's nothing wrong with these hands, the problem is people don't know how to play them.

3. C-Bet Sizing. I overbet the flop to extract max value, I had a monster and was lining up to set my stack in by the river if the turn card had been kinder. As I say bad micro stakes players just love to call - as you can see I didn't lose any customers! Top pair-probs dominated kicker and a lamo flush draw. If both villians had whiffed the flop they are just as likely to fold to 3/4 pot as they are slight overpot IMHO.

Incidentally this was the 1st time I'd played villains, had no notes as such but had quickly picked up Mr. 54s was an action junkie/aggro-fish and Ms. QTo was loose-passive. Those traits are evident in this hand.

I've mulled this hand over again now I've stopped smarting at losing 1/2 a buy in and agree with you, b/f always the way to go here.

bassripper

i think you have to call

you've only got another £2 to put in to win what woulda been a £12 pot and you have 20%

it's thin but these sort of players will shove 2 pair on this board and call with bigger diamond draws

jams88

I think you have played the hand fine.

I also think that 45s played the hand well adn wouldnt have noted him as a bad player from this hand alone

rancid

pre fine
flop u have set so bet
still have set on turn so bet
do u have the price to fill up if so call

so when you bet turn, don't need to bet too much - when they raise - which is nomrally a min raise - does this give you the correct odds to call to fill

just gotta ask if they either bluffing or value raising when you bet turn

BorinLoner

Rancid has hit the nail on the head. On the turn I think you have to call about £2 to win about £10 in the middle. Those are 5:1 pot-odds and your chances of making a full-house on the river are about 4:1. So it should have been a call after betting on the turn. You can never ignore the pot-odds in cash.

I don't like your bet sizing on the flop particularly. When you've got a monster, you do want to get money in but a big overbet just gets two folds most of the time. What do I know, eh? You got two calls. If you know these guys are calling 80p as often as they call 50p, then it's obviously better to bet 80p. Just don't get in the habit of this if you want to move up the levels.

Just going back to the turn action; What was the plan when you made the bet? Did you want them both to fold? Do they ever call down with just a pair or two-pair on this wet turn card? If not, what's the point in betting if they only get more money in with better hands?

After you bet the turn, you have to call the two all-ins but I'd prefer you to check and reassess. After getting the two callers on the flop, this is the worst card in the deck. It's player and bet-size dependent whether you can then call a bet but at least if you check you can potentially keep your opponents in with a wider range.

BorinLoner

By the way, I think you need to rethink your idea about the chap with 45s and about the hand itself. In position his pre-flop call is very good and on the flop, if he's figured out that you always bet like this when you have it, then he's absolutely right to call, especially with the dead money of the other player in the pot. Yes he's taking a chance that his flush-draw isn't the best out there but that's fairly unlikey and he does have a pair to beat any better flush draw.

The guy may be an "Aggro-fish", as you describe him, but he played this hand very well.

step7

I did consider calling on price at the time but figured it was just too close. I'll play around with the numbers here and see how it comes out, but I think I got lucky and made a correct fold based on actual equity/pot odds. Point taken though, I'll do my homework and be in a better position to make the call here next time if I have too.

I stick by the overbet on the flop based on the table and the fact this is NL4. If you want to move down to NL4 you may want to get in the habit of doing this;)

I hate checking the turn here, I'm giving free cards to draws with a good chance that Ace of Diamonds is out there fishing for a 4-flush. Yes, much worse hands call here, this is NL4.

My plan for the hand was bet turn, shove river if no diamond popped.

>"It's player and bet-size dependent whether you can then call a bet but at least if you check you can potentially keep your opponents in with a wider range."

I'm struggling to understand this, I suspect it's nonsense. Yes checking keeps vilians whole range in, but to what purpose? It just allows draws to get there for free and misses value that I most likely won't be able to extract on the river.

Btw the labels I'd put on the villains were just what I had in my head after seeing a few hands with them in the abscence of solid notes - no offence meant to either player!

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: NL4: Bet 3flush turn with set vs two callers?:

I did consider calling on price at the time but figured it was just too close. I'll play around with the numbers here and see how it comes out, but I think I got lucky and made a correct fold based on actual equity/pot odds. Point taken though, I'll do my homework and be in a better position to make the call here next time if I have too. I stick by the overbet on the flop based on the table and the fact this is NL4. If you want to move down to NL4 you may want to get in the habit of doing this;) I hate checking the turn here, I'm giving free cards to draws with a good chance that Ace of Diamonds is out there fishing for a 4-flush. Yes, much worse hands call here, this is NL4. My plan for the hand was bet turn, shove river if no diamond popped. />"It's player and bet-size dependent whether you can then call a bet but at least if you check you can potentially keep your opponents in with a wider range." I'm struggling to understand this, I suspect it's nonsense. Yes checking keeps vilians whole range in, but to what purpose? It just allows draws to get there for free and misses value that I most likely won't be able to extract on the river. Btw the labels I'd put on the villains were just what I had in my head after seeing a few hands with them in the abscence of solid notes - no offence meant to either player!
Posted by step7

If your opponents have just Tx, 9x or 4x, they (ought to and mostly will) just fold to your bet on the turn because it's such an awful card for them. So your bet likely folds out these hands that have either no chance or very little chance of beating you. They won't always fold and this is NL4 so they will call more often than they should but even at this level they're more likely to fold than call.

If they have two-pair you'd expect them to raise the flop so that's an unlikely hand but even these hands are going to be wary of this turn card. If we assume that 9T raises the flop, then 89 and 8T are the most likely holdings that now might pay you off. There is a chance that one of your opponents called with a pair and a back-door flush draw: JdTx, QdTx, KdTx and AdTx are conceivable and giving them a free card is not ideal but they only have 18%-30% chance of getting there. Even when they do get there it's going to be obvious and therefore easy to avoid paying them off... The other hands your opponents can call your flop bet with are straight draws and flush draws. The flushes all got there and the more likely of the two open-ended straight draws got there too.

If we're betting the turn for value we have to decide if 89, 8T and these four specific pair with flush draw hands are more likely than getting action from made flushes, straights and TT. We also have to balance that with the idea of failing to get more value from one-pair hands that are drawing super-thin or dead.

On the turn, when you bet you fold out lots of the hands you beat and get interest from lots of hands that beat you.

If you check you keep in those hands that are drawing dead or nearly dead, you keep in those hands that have just 18-30% chance against you, you give yourself the chance to avoid stacking off to better hands and you might get to see a cheap river that pairs the board. You can still get a value bet in on good rivers and after you check the turn your hand looks weaker and you may be called by those one-pair hands.

You're talking about getting stacks in but, on a board of Td9d8d, if you get your stack in with a set of nines you're more likely to have the worst hand than the best one because, of the hands that call your flop bet and give you action on the turn, more beat you than don't. Once this turn card hits, you should be thinking about trying to control the size of the pot unless the board pairs on the river. If the river brings a really bad card like the 7d, it's easy to just give it up. If one or both of your opponents bet the turn or river, then it's a question of putting them on a range and deciding if you beat enough of that range or have the correct odds to justify calling. That's when the point of it being player or bet size dependent applies.

Once you bet the turn, your pot-odds are £2.03 to win £12.33 total (Assuming that you have danpar covered and DEBZ181 puts in their last 74p). As a percentage, those pot-odds mean you need about 16.5% chance of winning the hand to make the call.

If you somehow knew their actual hands, you'd have 19% chance of winning. So it's a call. Without that knowledge we can count between 8 and 10 outs against most hands. The possibility of a set of tens or a made straight flush will reduce our equity against their ranges but overall it has to be a call. You can Stove it if you like to see if you're getting exactly the right price but betting to give yourself pot-odds of 16.5% and then folding is definitely going to be a losing plan in the long-term.

So that's why I prefer checking. It might be nonsense but if it is, it's well explained nonsense.

step7

At the my decision point I have to call 203 into 957, so itsn't it closer than your making out?

I'm still not convinced I can wait to get value at the river, there are too few cards that can roll off that I'd be happy to bet and villains would be happy to call on. 

My comment on planning for getting stacks in was at the flop where things are still looking good.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your line, wasn't trying to be offensive - I was just struggling to see the sense in it. I'm going to sit down when I'm fresh and give this hand further thought and run the numbers for myself - I'm sure similar spots are going to come up and I want to be better prepared next time.

BorinLoner

To work out your pot-odds as a percentage you need to divide your potential stake by the amount in the middle added to your potential stake. That will show your break-even point.

In this hand you need to call £2.03 and the amount currently in the middle is £9.57. I'm assuming that the other player, having raised the turn to £2.24, is going to put their remaining 74p in. If that's the case, our break-even point is:

£2.03 / £12.33 x 100 = 16.46%

Without the additional 74p, your break-even point rises to 17.51%.

step7

OK got it! Thanks again

Borin. Folding was wrong, plan and simple. I got lucky and saved money, but I can see this is a losing play long term.

smitalol

it's an insta call to be honest with the amount of money going in