what raise would avoid scaring the villian

craigcu12

the way he was betting i thought to myself he has a Jx or A8 or a flush draw

so because i am holding a set what raise would be able to keep him from thinking i hold the set or QQ AA

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jonah54	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.34
Oh_Yeah_3	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£5.04
	Your hole cards	K K
WALLY212	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£4.22
Prankie	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		£0.32	£0.42	£3.66
jonah54	Call		£0.30	£0.72	£5.04
Oh_Yeah_3	Fold
WALLY212	Fold
Flop
		K 8 J
jonah54	Bet		£0.04	£0.76	£5.00
craigcu12	Call		£0.04	£0.80	£3.62
Turn
		3
jonah54	Bet		£0.16	£0.96	£4.84

Curt360x27

Pre is good but calling the flop is terrible. 

Make it around 80p-£1 and shove turn. Remember just keep it simples. Max value all the way. 

gazza127

errrr 8x pre bet?. thats scaring off hands you are beating and will make money from.  Im surprised you got a call to see the flop at that price although i'll admit I don't play cash so it might be slightly different.  Flop play is very strange.  He donk leads min bets.  You've raised 8x pre and you are flat calling to that board?  Id expect him to have nothing less than high pp/AQ.  Don't give him a cheap card! If hes on a draw make him pay! I raise flop to 2/3s and turn 2/3s also or possibly jamming.  The lead out suggests hes hit the flop in some manner and youre missing out on value. If he folds, at least youve won the hand.  Don't ket him hit his 10 on the river for pittence.  

step7

@Gazza: welcome to the cally world of NL4! 12x and this guy probably still calling.

@Craig: OMG - I wouldn't be able to sleep after this, top set vs two pair and you didn't stack him

The guy called 8x pre, he likes his hand! Bet hard, set phasers to stack.

bassripper

i don't understand people mentioning 'price' to call and such things

this level is 'i want to see a flop' they aren't looking at or thinking about anything other than their own cards

the bet pre is fine if you're on a table with people that will pay it more often than not

the hand: raise 60p+ on the flop

as played raise turn massively, you need to start getting some value

craigcu12

In Response to Re: what raise would avoid scaring the villian:

Pre is good but calling the flop is terrible.  Make it around 80p-£1 and shove turn. Remember just keep it simples. Max value all the way. 
Posted by Curt360x27

the reason i fealt not to raise the flop was down to the fact i've had lots ofi hands which i did a raise but then a 4p bet would fold
it's as if they think it is a bluff

potty116	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.85
craigcu12	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.29
	Your hole cards	10 A
Mk79	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£6.14
fffflipek	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£5.48
potty116	Fold
craigcu12	Check
Flop
		8 7 5
craigcu12	Check
Mk79	Check
fffflipek	Bet		£0.04	£0.18	£5.44
craigcu12	Raise		£0.21	£0.39	£3.08
Mk79	Fold
fffflipek	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£0.20		£3.28
craigcu12	Return		£0.17	£0.02	£3.45

here i had a flush draw and wanted more in the pot so raised it and straight away he folded

jams88

The 2 hands are different villains so their play won't be the same. The pre flop play in both hands is completly different.

The kk you have to be raising here for value or you are never going to be making any money from your big hands as said 80p-£1 is a good size. If he folds, he folds and you lose the 16p that you may have got out of him on later streets by calling if you raise and he calls 1/5 times you are still making more money imo and give yourself a decent chance to get his entire stack.

jugglegeek

You have top set at NL4. The only correct thing to do is raise. At this level you are getting called by any king, and flush draw, and pretty much any jack. Plus all the other sets might play this way and get it in otf.

Sure much of the time the villian will fold but who cares.

Bet bet bet!

BorinLoner

On the KK, I agree that you should raise the flop. By waiting to raise on a blank turn card, you just make yourself look alot stronger. You would raise a draw on the flop, not wait for your equity to drop on the turn before raising.  I suspect you'd also raise your AA, AK, KQ hands on this flop, too.

You also have to make sure not to give the draw a good price. If your opponent has a flush draw, which he will sometimes, then his chances of making it on the turn are 4:1. So if he gets a better price than 4:1 on the flop then he's making money. If you offer him better than 4:1 on the flop, you're losing money. Here you've let him set the price at 19:1... So he makes alot of money out of this flop play if he has a flush draw. Also, by not raising the flop, you're making it really difficult to stack him by the river. You want to be able to get his entire stack in the middle without having to make a huge overbet at any stage, because he can't call a huge overbet without a huge hand. He may call three smaller bets with a marginal hand.

On the AT hand you should be quite happy when you get the fold on the flop. You do have a big draw but your raise is a semi-bluff. If he has a hand like A7, then we're making him fold a hand that's a favourite against us. Even against hands that we're a marginal favourite against we should be happy to take the pot down. We're only really disappointed if we make them fold a weaker flush draw but they probably aren't folding that.

The bottom line is to not be unhappy when we win a pot with a semi-bluff. The times that they fold adds dramatically to the value of the raise. That's why we do it.

Spikelad

Craig by posting your hands you are getting valuable advice that you can use in the future.I think you now know calling the flop bet in the first hand was a mistake and i am pretty sure you wont make that mistake again.

Step is correct in saying your aim here should have been to stack the guy but your call on the flop keeps the pot smaller than it should have been.However i hope you managed to sleep that night as after all it is only a game of poker, not life and death.

Craig it is also good etiquette to delete the names of the players when posting a hand.

unknown_username

y call 4p on the flop?? there are still draws out there if you had KA or something would you call or re raise it